This is my first link post! I can't believe no one posted this yet. Please let me know if my post needs to be clearer or anything.

electricspacegirl | February 22, 23:20 CET

Enjoyed this post electricspacegirl. Congrats on your first!!! :) I'm a little saddened if there are not changes for the finale...I dunno...I was hoping for some closure on things. But as I said before...I have faith in the ME team.



[ edited by Coll on 2004-02-22 21:27 ]

Coll | February 22, 23:25 CET

Forgive all the editing...grammatical errors...yikes not on the ball today!!!

Coll | February 22, 23:27 CET

Thanks, Coll. Yeah I definitely have faith in ME. Maybe the writers already have a way of giving closure to the show that won't leave us hanging. I'm sure there will be loose ends but I don't think Joss is done with the Angelverse which will (and I say 'will' to keep it possitive) lead to more things Angel. Movies, a spinoff, moving the show to a new network. It's all a possibility. And I really hope I'm not just in denial here. I'm sure Joss isn't done with the stories so I'm certainly not done watching!

Dumb old fairy tales and their happily ever afters.

electricspacegirl | February 22, 23:32 CET

No there's no real spoilers in the post so I've removed the tag. What David Fury has to say is always interesting :). And a great insight into the workings of Mutant Enemy.Anyone who posts at Whedonesque go to the party?

Simon | February 22, 23:35 CET

Thanks, Simon. I'm just trying to be one of the gang here. :)

I sure wish I lived in L.A. with all the Wolfram & Hart Annual Reviews and Posting Board Parties and what not. It sounds like loads of fun.

electricspacegirl | February 22, 23:37 CET

electricspacegirl, great first post! There's lots of intriguing stuff to ponder in what Fury said.

I have suspected for a while now that Angel/Spike would be the true love story of this season. Interesting to have that validated by Fury. As for Spike being "morally superior" to Angel?! Wow. I'm not sure what to think about that yet. I wish Fury had explained this in greater depth. Is it because Spike chose to get his soul back? Is it because William was in life a more decent (if priggishly silly) person? Is it because of Spike's actions since getting his soul back?

I fear that Fury's statement is going to launch an all-out internet war between the fervent anti-Spikes and the fervent pro-Spikes. Since I belong to neither camp I'm getting out of the way -- fast.

I'm disappointed that Joss won't be writing the finale. Damn, damn, damn. Although it's cool to hear that he's off writing the Firefly movie

phlebotinin | February 22, 23:37 CET

I second Simon's question: did anyone reading this go to the PBP? Or to the Wolfram & Hart Annual Review last night? I'd love to read more first-hand accounts.

phlebotinin | February 22, 23:40 CET

I'm sure that if Joss thought that this really was going to be the absolute end of "Angel" he'd make the time to write the finale. Maybe the fact that he isn't means he does intend to do a spinoff/movies, or maybe negotiations with UPN or someone else are going well.

Ghost Spike | February 22, 23:42 CET

I hope you're right, Ghost Spike.

phlebotinin | February 22, 23:50 CET

Fury always delivers the goods - him and DeKnight yelling at each other cracks me up.

Caroline | February 22, 23:56 CET

I like the part about James being too good at his sex scenes. It brings out the naughty fangirl in me. ;)

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-02-22 22:11 ]

electricspacegirl | February 23, 00:06 CET

Some folks over at Buffistas seem to have gone. The discussion starts about here and goes on (intermittently through the chat), including a posting of some personal photos here.

melsta | February 23, 00:20 CET

As for Spike being morally superior - this mirrors a comment by Joss, who said a few months ago that spike is "more evolved" than Angel, indeed citing Spike's quest for his soul.
As for Joss not writing the finale - fine by me. I just hope Minear and Greenwalt get to do one ep each, although that doesn't seem likely if I understand Fury correctly.

Anti | February 23, 00:37 CET

About Spike being "morally superior" to Angel: It's all on a continuum. I mean, right now Angel has sold out to an evil corpotation and Spike has not. Spike has been saving people all old-school while Angel sits in his posh office dealing with how to do the right thing while working in the offices of an evil empire. It makes sense to me that Spike is the "good guy" in this, but that doesn't mean Angel has to stay that way. Remember Cordelia's reaction to Angel working for W&H? I mean, "What freakin' bizarro world did I wake up in?" is right. Angel sold out. What is he still doing there especially after Cordelia's wake-up call? (er...no pun intended)

And now that I've brought up the Cordelia episode...did anyone else think at the end of that, that Angel was going to leave W&H? Why is he still there? After "You're Welcome, I expected Angel to resign and walk out that door and never come back to W&H, which would lead to everyone suddenly remembering the "Connor mind swipe" and Connor waking up from a really good dream. I thought for sure something like that was going to happen.

electricspacegirl | February 23, 00:48 CET

I second Simon's question: did anyone reading this go to the PBP? Or to the Wolfram & Hart Annual Review last night?

A good friend of mine went to the Annual Revue, or at least the big party on Saturday night. She says she has inside info to share. If she does post anything, I'll let you all know.

janeway216 | February 23, 01:16 CET

In response to Spike being "morally superior" to Angel, I think it has more to do with the fact that Spike actively pursued getting his soul back whereas Angel had his thrust upon him. Angel didn't really have a choice in the matter...except to do good works from there on out. That's just my personal take on the issue.

Tracy | February 23, 01:40 CET

Thanks a lot, janeway216. I wish I could attend one of these gatherings. I'm always too far away....

Thanks also to melsta for the links to those enjoyable firsthand accounts.

I'm wondering if anyone at the Revue connected to the show hinted about the possibility of Angel getting picked up at UPN or TNT. I'd assume that their orders are to say nothing but it would be interesting if anyone let anything slip.

phlebotinin | February 23, 01:42 CET

Interesting stuff. I've never understood the 'camps' on the net between Spike and Angel or how fanatical they can get. Both Angel and Spike have always been my favorites and their 'big brother - little brother' relationship is one of the best of the 'Jossverse'.

Spike is definitely more evolved (Angelus would never go for a soul) but the morally superior remark was an interesting one even to me. I'd say they're both capable of being quite ruthless and both pretty much heroic softies when push comes to shove and someone has to be saved.

I'm glad they're not changing the finale much. I feel strongly the Jossverse will continue in some form and I want as many characters as possible still available for those future projects.

And that's also why I hope NOBODY Shanshus.

EdDantes | February 23, 01:48 CET

God, yes, please let no-one Shanshu. I agree with EdDantes on wanting things to be kept nicely open. At the very least this allows us all to endlessly imagine future scenarios.

phlebotinin | February 23, 01:52 CET

electricspacegirl- i think you missed the point to "You're Welcome." in the teaser of the episode Angel quit Wolfram and Heart, but Cordelia pep-talk and the events of the episode re-affirmed his faith in himself, and that he can overcome the moral ambiguity and grayness that being head of W&H provide, and still be a hero from within. what made you think he was going to still quit at the end?

the "bizarro world" thing was just her initial reaction. in her final talk with him she expresses a very different, optimistic opinion.

narky | February 23, 02:06 CET

Re: You're Welcome
Or...Cordelia was the real failsafe to keep Angel under control at W&H and her help in giving Angel reaffirmation was more rope to hang himself with.

Was that reaffirmation of his duty or of his hubris that he is the big champion who will conquer all obstacles even from inside the belly of the beast? And at any cost?

Great stuff from David Fury, BTW. Especially about the love between Angel and Spike and the perception of Spike being written as stupid. They're doing some tricky stuff with pov this season and although I wish it were more explicit, I suspect they don't want it to be because it's setting up the major revelations of the final episode arcs.

punkinpuss | February 23, 02:17 CET

They're doing some tricky stuff with pov this season and although I wish it were more explicit, I suspect they don't want it to be because it's setting up the major revelations of the final episode arcs.

Ooooh! Good point punkinpuss. That really makes sense. Sometimes I forget that some of the way the characters act are from the point of view of another character. I know that was true in the way Spike (and everyone else) was portrayed in the Harmony episode. I'll be remembering that.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2004-02-23 00:40 ]

electricspacegirl | February 23, 02:36 CET

I thought that Joss was the only person at ME that could demand a script change? So how does Fury get to tell DeKnight to do a rewrite? I am positive that all of there interviews I have read stated that only Marti and Joss could demand a rewrite and since Marti is gone that leaves you-know-who...
On a side note, it only takes a week to write an episode for AtS...Joss couldn't take a week off to finish up the series? I find that very strange.

Simpleba | February 23, 03:19 CET

based on those comments it does sound like SMG wont be back, but then again, they might try to keep it hidden and surprise us(at least i hope)

norman | February 23, 03:37 CET

when youre in deep prep for a movie that means a lot to you, i doubt you can just decide to take a week off to do something else. i dont think its strange, especially in light of him writing ep 15. just because he doesnt have a hand in the execution doesnt mean he hasnt devoted more than enough of his time to the other stages

narky | February 23, 03:39 CET

I thought it was pretty obvious that this season was about Angel and Spike's relationship so I wasn't surprised at Fury's comment.

As for Spike being "morally superior" to Angel, I can see where he's coming from. Angel was a morally challenged person before he became a vampire and Spike was a really kind and loving person. When Angelus killed, he made great efforts to make the victims suffer as much as possible by mentally and physically torturing them first where Spike just enjoyed the act of killing. Spike realized not long after he got his soul back that, yes, he did some horrible things in the past but he recognized that it was the demon in him. Angel is having a hard time coming to grips with all the things he did as a demon because as he asked Buffy once "Am I a thing worth saving, huh? am I a righteous man?" he has his doubts that he was and could ever be a worthy man.

I think Angel was the teacher to Spike in the past but it will be Spike who really leads Angel to redemption.

And I totally agree with Fury that it was important to both Spike and Angel's developments that Spike won that fight. Spike is sure of himself and his path and Angel had his doubts at that time that he was a worthy person. Of course puppet Angel kicked Spike's ass so he might be feeling a little better now.

Firefly Flanatic | February 23, 03:56 CET

As promised, here is my friend's report on the Annual Revue. She'll add the pictures later.

If people feel this should be reposted as a front-page link, I can do that.

janeway216 | February 23, 04:26 CET

Thanks for posting the link, janeway216. Your friend is one lucky person and her descriptions made some of the moments come alive. It was all very fun to read EXCEPT the "Angel is over no matter what" from Fury. Nothing can save Angel? Why even put together a proposal for UPN, then? Depressing. I hope Fury is wrong.

phlebotinin | February 23, 04:40 CET

"The show isn't going to be saved, no matter what campaigns pop up (not that the campaigns aren't appreciated)."

That's really depressing. Well, as long as it has a kick-ass ending, I think I'll be fine. At least "Wonderfalls" starts March 12. And "Game Over" (March 10) looks like it could be good, also.

I guess it's time to put a list of the "Angel" actors and writers up on my wall, and not be satisfied they all have new jobs.

Invisible Green | February 23, 04:42 CET

You know, IG, that's not such a bad idea. If/when the worst happens, we should write and let the studios know we want to see these actors again.

wissxwe | February 23, 04:55 CET

Thanks for posting your friend's report, janeway216. It sounds like the party was a blast, as all these faraway fan-friendly events always do. *sigh*

I'm wondering about what David Fury said with regard to 'Angel's chance for a renewal/pickup deal; it's no doubt the hard-nosed Hollywood pragmatist in him making the statement he did (which I won't rephrase because it shouldn't become fourth-party repetition), but does this mean AtS fans should stop barraging TNT or UPN because there's no point, seriously? I know he didn't mean to kill people's optimism, but honestly I'm sitting here now feeling upset and teary all over again. Is it really over? Just like that? When Fury's opinion (incontestible as far as source goes since he's an exec. producer now, isn't he?) gets out to the rest of the fandom, I'm afraid it's going to be interpreted as the final nail in 'Angel's coffin.

Wiseblood | February 23, 05:07 CET

blwessels, I was just about to post something kinda similar, but you beat me to it.

EdDantes | February 23, 06:09 CET

I don't know, it sounds pretty final to me. On the other hand, they must be aware of the Saving Angel campaign, which has raised $7,542.37, and I guess I feel like ME et al would say something to them if they really thought it was hopeless. So as not to waste the money on an ad, just send it directly on to a charity. I don't know, maybe I'm not thinking straight through all the sadness.

Thanks janeway216 for posting that and please thank your friend for the write-up.

marmoset | February 23, 06:22 CET

I just think the ME people have had a run of bad luck lately concerning television and networks. A lot of people who were involved with ME who went off to do other projects had them all cancelled quickly. Joss has had to deal with having the WB slap him in the face - twice - just as each of his shows hit the 100 episode mark. Firefly, his baby, is cancelled before it can even find an audience due to lack of promotion and a bad time slot by Fox. So they all just may be a bit skeptical of anything else happening with Angel. Maybe they just know something the rest of us don't or they don't want to get their hopes up.

After saying all that though I will admit that I've been a bit concerned that we haven't heard Joss say he's going to try and shop Angel around to other networks. He was quite adamant and obsessed with trying to find another home for Firefly when it was abruptly cancelled and quite verbal in letting the fans know it too.

I still think everyone should continue with the petitions and letters because maybe we can make it happen even if ME is feeling skeptical. The more noise we make the better chance that, at the least, the WB will be interested in doing the movies they mentioned, especially if their gamble to can Angel in favor of newer shows doesn't get the results they are hoping for. A couple of Buffy/Angel mini series could be a great.

Firefly Flanatic | February 23, 06:42 CET

I know there are postcard campaigns for UPN and the WB, but have any of the campaigns targeted HBO? Because from that posting (which was very cool by the way, thank you to janeway216) it sounded that if Angel were only a few seasons old, HBO was a possibility. I think since Angel has been reinvented this year, that it could be marketed as a new show. Why not try HBO?

mai | February 23, 07:10 CET

I've put the link to veggibelle's LJ on the front page. It's important, very important. Tensai has done the same thing at Spoiler Slayer.

Simon | February 23, 11:40 CET

Actually . . . can you delete that one so I can post it? I know this sounds childish and whiny, but she is my friend and I've never posted anything to Whedonesque before.

I didn't want to post it to the front page without permission; I wasn't really sure if it was good enough.

janeway216 | February 23, 12:02 CET

It doesn't matter who posts it, as long as it's posted.

Caroline | February 23, 12:38 CET

kk.

janeway216 | February 23, 12:54 CET

After saying all that though I will admit that I've been a bit concerned that we haven't heard Joss say he's going to try and shop Angel around to other networks.

Joss may have learned that it's better not to talk about these kinds of dealmaking issues before the ink is dry. It might very well have hurt more than helped in shopping Firefly around.

punkinpuss | February 23, 21:52 CET