(SPOILER)
For the discussion of Buffy #28.
The third part of Jane Espenson's 'Retreat' arc may provoke a lot of debate.
September 02 2009
You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.
J/k the comic shop isn't even open yet.
Firnatine | September 02, 15:18 CET
luv4whedon | September 02, 17:20 CET
Simon | September 02, 17:42 CET
This issue works on a very meta-textual level by using Andrew's camera to develop the story, and it makes it clear that every little tease about hook-ups was intentional, since this issue squeezed every last tease out of several pairings that it could.
Could it be Buffy and Faith? We see the two (former?) Slayers working the land together, and once again finding some more depth in their bond as Faith is the one more satisfied in this new life. Buffy finally admits something she probably couldn't have in Season 7 under all that stress -- she doesn't even *want* to be in charge. But no, it's not them...
Could it be Xander and Dawn? Andrew's camera catches the two of them taking a joint breath in the change of pace, and demonstrate just how close they've grown, as Dawn suggests that this may be where Xander can finally go after what he wants. And they're so obviously talking about Buffy they don't even half to talk about Buffy, but perhaps Dawn is also talking about her, with a little hope? But apparently it's not them...
Could it actually *be* Buffy and Xander? We see probably the most deliciously intimate moment they have ever shared, and both of them look so very on the verge of telling each other some serious things... but, like the moment between Buffy and Spike in "End of Days", it balks somehow, there's something more pressing, something that has to be taken care of first. And isn't it great to see these two openly talking about their concern for their best friend, and how to help her?
Could it be Willow and Oz? No, surely not, not with him married, her dating, and all else that could stand between... but no one else even came close to getting inside Willow's mind, to reminding her she's Willow ("come back to me", he once said), and this conversation more than any other seems to encourage her. He trusts her. He trusts her. That's something she hasn't fully known or felt from even her best friends for a long time.
Could it be Buffy and Willow, perhaps? It's Willow that Buffy thought to go speak to when she sounded like she might Say Something to Xander... could telling Willow her fears, about Fray's time, lead to something more? Not this night at least, but it's so nice to see the honesty between them, and Willow actually showing some optimism, optimism that rubs off on Buffy. Willow sees something in her friend, something that tells her that maybe Buffy's future is there as well, there with their mutual best friend...
But it's Joss, and there must be pain. Always must there be pain. Perhaps it was one near miss too many, perhaps Buffy and Xander were always having two different conversations. Perhaps it's because she's extraordinary and the windows really did need fixing. For whatever reason, it's too late -- when Buffy goes to resume whatever her side of that conversation was, she sees Xander and her sister in each other's arms, kissing tenderly.
I'm a little moved, a little (okay a lot) heartbroken, and once again completely amazed by just how "back" Buffy is with this comic. And, oh yeah, Twilight is going to come kill them all because Amy has been hanging out as a cat. And no, I don't think for a second, even a second, that she is the mole, not when Warren knew about the First screwing with Andrew. I wish she was, but she's not.
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-09-02 17:55 ]
[ edited by KingofCretins on 2009-09-02 17:56 ]
KingofCretins | September 02, 17:54 CET
luv4whedon | September 02, 18:04 CET
Shep | September 02, 18:21 CET
Buffyfantic | September 02, 18:33 CET
I want!!! Where do you get it
[ edited by demon magnet on 2009-09-02 18:54 ]
demon magnet | September 02, 18:54 CET
But there has to be a lot more than just the shipping to the issue hasn't it? How do they get rid of their magic. Why can't they just will it back?
How about the mole, are there any more clues?
Changeling | September 02, 18:55 CET
Maybe none of them will have to die. :D
I know, I know, I'm just a cockeyed optimist. %D
Yay, Dander! Try not to get killed!
Pointy | September 02, 18:56 CET
Emelye | September 02, 19:15 CET
I've got my fingers crossed for you, Dander!
Emmie | September 02, 19:16 CET
Yeah, but maybe it'll take them a while to die. Willow and Tara had some happy years in between. I don't think death is imminent.
Changeling | September 02, 19:54 CET
Simon | September 02, 19:58 CET
In this issue, I was able to, if not completely understand the reasoning behind the un-magicking, at least see how it touches all the characters. I loved the exchanges between Xander/Buffy and Willow/Oz. Willow broke my heart with her "You would trust me?" line. And she was back in Will form with her response to Buffy's confession.
As for the snogging, I saw it coming for months. The Buffy/Xander scene made me step back and breathe a sigh of relief that they would finally be together and my suspicions were false. I've been rooting for them for a long time. Honestly, the Dawn/Xander thing is kind of icking me out. They have always been like brother and sister. At some points I would even say that Xander was a father figure for Dawn. Why would Xander go for Dawn when it seemed really clear that Buffy was finally able to see that she should be with Xander? So confused...
peepstone | September 02, 20:05 CET
peepstone | September 02, 20:06 CET
OldMusic | September 02, 20:26 CET
gossi | September 02, 20:41 CET
English slang for something major happening for the first time, it comes from the game of cricket.
Simon | September 02, 20:52 CET
I loved the little moving scene between Faith and Buffy. That was nice. I loved the sweetness in the exchange between Buffy and Xander. I totally saw Xander and Dawn coming (for ages), and it makes a perfect kind of sense, but I felt so sad for Buffy at the end of this book. Well done, Ms. Espenson.
Edited to add: As for the betrayer in the midst of the Slayers, I can't help but go back to the imagery shown in Anywhere But Here (Issue 10) of Buffy after the betrayal. We see a terribly injured Buffy lying on the ground, a cracked red egg-thing hovering in the air, and a weird, dark doorway. Or something. Clearly, we were being shown clues of what was to come. So far I can't figure out what it all means, though.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2009-09-02 21:32 ]
phlebotinin | September 02, 21:16 CET
Willowy | September 02, 21:30 CET
brynmars | September 02, 21:50 CET
The Dark Shape | September 02, 22:05 CET
The issue was very good minus Andrew's Storyteller repeat(following everyone around with a camera recording things and the whole storyteller Andrew bits throughout).I realize Storyteller was Jane's episode and so she probably couldn't resist basically doing a sequel to it but I didn't care for the episode Storyteller so that as a setup for this issue wouldn't be a draw to me.
But the actual content was great.Loved the Buffy/Faith heart to heart.Just loved especially when Faith puts her arm/pats Buffy on the shoulder. Also thought Buffy's The Count T-shirt was very cute.
The Willow/Oz talk was also stellar.I loved Oz's pep talk to Willow and Oz trusting Willow with watching his son.The look on Willow's face and the tear in her eye got me when she says,"You trust me?"As well as her interaction with Kelden.
But I'm calling it right now.I think Oz and Bay are dead meat and will be killed both by the time this arc is over.And Willow will end up caring for there son,Kelden.
Also loved Buffy/Willow's heart to heart and Buffy telling Willow about killing her future self.And Willow's reaction.With her not blaming Buffy and this making her more resolved on working harder on the no magic deal,something she was having problems with throughout the issue up until her talk with Oz and now this.Always great to see Buffy/Willow hugging.
Obviously the big thing is the Buffy/Xander talk,the Xander/Dawn talk and the Xander/Dawn kiss with Buffy walking in on it.
I think it could go either way as far as this being setup for future B/X or not.I did get B/X vibes myself from Buffy's side of things.Her thinking of Xander in a romantic way.A lot will depend on what happens next issue.
I will say this.Brad Meltzer said about his arc in issues 32-35.
So I can see why Bander shippers might be excited now.But I can just as easly see this not playing out this way.Again,the next issue might tell more of the tale.
In a Buffy/Xander/Dawn triangle,I would want Dawn to win not because of the idea of B/X.I would be okay with playing around with B/X depending on how it's played but because of Dawn's inferiorty complex in regards to Buffy.The episode,"Him" really showing it.I don't like a triangle involving Buffy and Dawn though to begin with since I would hate the idea of a guy coming between the two sisters.I consider the Buffy/Dawn relationship to be precious.More precious then any romantic pairing.I consider Angel/Connor the same way.
But we'll see where this is going in due time.The next two issues are going to be intense.
Buffyfantic | September 02, 22:25 CET
bobw1o | September 02, 22:57 CET
I wonder what it is Willow thinks she has to do. She seemed to mean something specific.
Sunfire | September 03, 00:01 CET
That was a good issue. It had what the last issue was lacking, for me: a good long conversation between Willow and Oz. It felt wrong that they'd meet up and only get 1 panel to talk. In this issue they got 3 pages all to themselves. I was really happy about that.
dispatch | September 03, 00:18 CET
crazygolfa | September 03, 00:23 CET
This strikes me as the core message here-with Buffy's confession that she doesn't want to be leader anymore, the whole no magic event strikes me as the thing that Buffy has always struggled with--wanting to be normal, twinned with wanting to make Willow not be FDW.
I'm also getting a very edgy vibe about how Willow keeps getting told she can be normal--there are echoes about misconceptions about gay people--that they can "just change". This is not true here and I don't think it's going to stick. Also, I am really squicked by Oz's use of the term "poison" for magic, since Willow's redemption and power came from balancing the sides of herself--and now, it's turned into the indelible mark of wrong, not fitting in--and also the weird hatred of magic that underlies this whole enterprise--how much of this is some kind of elaborate self-hate?(I also did not like Willow's "No" followed by Oz's "yes."--I think there's a lot of stepping over boundaries of consent with this whole plan of Buffy's:/--which I still think for these reasons is dangerously selfish.
(Also, did anyone catch that all the voices of dissent were lesbian--Satsu, Willow and Kennedy? Andrew describes them as "malcontents. While we do not know the orientation of every single slayer, I think there's something going on with them being singled out and not wanting to play with the program.)
Likewise, I find it telling that when talking about Willow, Andrew is speaking in front of a broken heart--two sides, split apart. Is this symbolic of splitting off the magic from the human, that it's pain, that this is going to snap something irrevocably.)
I also thought Willow's "With what I am, with what I have to do." was very telling. I am getting the feeling that she is going to have her own walk soon and will not be able to go along with this.
I've also noticed with each light/happy event there is an element of something wrong--Buffy and Xander's talk with her hurt finger, Buffy and Faith doing hard labor and looking at a dark hole, Willow's bonding time with Kelden that comes after Oz is being rather pushy about her choices. This makes the "You'd trust me?" even harder and sweeter-because she hasn't said yes and has something else, but can get this moment.
I think Willow knows this isn't going to work or has her unspoken burden...and I also think this bears on the Buffy/Willow talk--I think it is sweet but I think to an extent Willow is telling her what she wants to hear rather than what we've seen, that Willow is unhappy--but is trying to comfort her friend.
As for Dawn and Xander happy moment-well, that's joy mixed with sadness and emptiness.Ow, poor Buffy.
So I think this issue is also about perception vs. reality, fake vs real (including the "Willow, I thought you were a spy"and
asking the question how much you can make someone change--anyone.
This is leading into some very hard stuff--and as of the last panel literally.
(I also loved Kennedy in this issue--her swearing appearances were a hoot:))
I am really curious to see where this is going.
JessicaMelusine | September 03, 00:40 CET
Emmie | September 03, 01:37 CET
Dana5140 | September 03, 02:17 CET
Invisible Green | September 03, 02:22 CET
Over time, the show has changed metaphors. Magic used to mean lesbian love, then it become an power abuse thing. Even if the slayers and Willow give up magic, are we still judging them by the old criteria? Does slayerhood still mean empowerment? Or can they be empowered without being slayers? Without magic?
Also, are they really "giving up" magic? I think it is more akin to them not holding it in themselves: letting it flow through the earth, as several people have said. I am trying to figure out how that is different, but It's all very confusing.
I'm sure things will be a lot more clear in hindsight.
[ edited by Giles_314 on 2009-09-03 02:54 ]
Giles_314 | September 03, 02:35 CET
kasadilla | September 03, 03:10 CET
archon | September 03, 04:21 CET
patxshand | September 03, 05:00 CET
I don't think it's wrong, but I do think it's a mistake and will probably be short lived. I have too hard a time imagining them in a long term relationship. Besides, we'd lose all of those great stories where Dawn dates the wrong guy. It's practically a facet of her character (come to think of it, it's a facet of Xander's too... maybe it really was meant to be!).
dispatch | September 03, 05:25 CET
Xander would have been around 19-20 at the time of Real Me. That makes him only 5-6 years older than Dawn and I don't have a problem with that. Though that may have something to do with the fact that my parents are 5 years apart. Besides as Buffy once stated, both her boyfriends remembered the industrial revolution *g*
Dawn is a mature young woman now so it's not really fair for the writers to keep thinking of her as the 14yr old girl she was in season 5. That doesn't seem right some how.
[ edited by vampmogs on 2009-09-03 05:40 ]
vampmogs | September 03, 05:41 CET
What I wonder is why Andrew suspected the puppy but never realized it was the kitty?!?! I am glad to know that Amy has expanded her abilities beyond being a rat.
embers | September 03, 05:41 CET
I do have one question though: At the end Andrew says "Well that's very sad. But at least things are out in the open. The only one left with a secret is...me"
So, is Andrew's secret the fact that he suspected Willow of being an agent of Twilight or does he have another secret?
(I'm thinking maybe Twilight or Spike related??)
tranquillity | September 03, 10:23 CET
vampmogs | September 03, 10:39 CET
[ edited by Small Blue Thing on 2009-09-03 11:01 ]
Small Blue Thing | September 03, 10:59 CET
I didn't feel sad for Buffy simply because i don't believe that she truelly wants Xander that way. He was there for 8 years and she never made wanted to seriously date him. If they were to hook up now then i feel Xander would always question wether she truelly wants to be with him or simply because of the lack of potential partners, in praticular the 2 greatest loves of her life, Spike and Angel.
It seemed more like Buffy was ready to fully accept being "normal". Get rid of the slayer-powers, do normal stuff, have normal boyfriend. But i think Buffy's in the wrong, she's denying who and what she is.
Plus i don't really like the idea of two sisters in a love-triangle. But this is all speculation, first we need to know Buffy's mindset.
Vergil | September 03, 13:05 CET
Small Blue Thing | September 03, 13:21 CET
Not sure where you're going with that... ;)
I think sexual deviant is more than a bit strong and I'm not really bothered by it, there've been hints of it for a long time, especially Dawn being a bit crushy about Xander and him brushing it aside. I adored Storyteller and thought this was a decent issue, though the pacing of these arcs probably holds up better in a re-read all-in-one-sitting type situation.
I suspect there are deliberate parallels being drawn in the "choose to be 'normal'" aspects of this and I'm interested to see where it leads. I hope the metatext doesn't overwhelm the text :) because if we concentrate on that it can lead us to expect or interpret wrongly as a metatextual reaction vs. a, er, pardon the expression, straight reading of the text itself.
Very happy that Oz and Willow got more talky and the "poison" talk is understandable from Oz's pov and also recalls "Wrecked" to my mind. Lots of nice callbacks both textually and thematically from Jane, plus some fun and heartbreak. Well done.
zeitgeist | September 03, 13:41 CET
Dana5140 "Willow has another reason to have a broken heart, right? "
Yes.
I also think this goes back to last issue and all the way back to AWBH-that Willow has lost her chance at a family because she made Buffy come back from the dead and because of it lost Tara (and their little family with Dawn.) She's surviving,but. (Also, I thought Oz's statement that "there are donors, there's adoption" was really amazingly not getting it.) This also makes the "no family because of what I have to do" even sadder:(
(Also as far as oddness, did you notice that Willow was wearing her old Sunnydale style when she met Oz again and prior to that was noticed as dressing much more like Tara, esp during her triumphant return in TLWH? It's like she's a little teen again, much more powerless.)I also think that Buffy and the rest of the team have sometimes fallen into the Willow-as-magic-dispenser rather than Willow-as-woman with real feelings and issues along with the mistrust. Also, my relationship would be strained and sad with my best friend if she decided that part of me was toxic and needed to be worked away.)
Giles_314, I'd feel a lot differently about this if it was a decision that everyone made together, but it wasn't--it seemed like it happened on a dangerous whim (and well, an attack). I think in this situation, Buffy (who I do love) is making a unilateral decision to take away people's power--more accurately, ones that could help them, especially because they are not the only Slayers out there. I am seriously wondering if magic as metaphor is becoming even more complex--because especially with the Slayers, it's an intrinsic, physical part of them being slayers--and now that power is something to shove away by doing hard labor/busywork. For me, it does not seem to match up with the idea that one can be special without magic (which one certainly can), but rather this whole arc seems to be based on a demonization of magic--ie, that if they can get rid of that, everything will be fine. My feeling is it may have been what Oz needed and what Buffy wishes for,but it does not mean that it is right for everyone. While Buffy did plan for the activation spell, I also noticed that it is still preceeded with "Are you ready to be strong?" There is a question and some agency (granted, there are still all the newbie slayers who did not get asked, but at the act of creation she asked the team she had...and this came as an order. As paraphrasing Buffy since I don't have my comic here :"We're going to go see someone who makes a career out of not being magic and Willow is going to do one less spell and then no more ever."
That strikes me as a very different management style--and especially with T. on the way, this could be very, very bad. (to be meta, Espenson did write BSG, so we're in a sitch that is not afraid of very bad things:/) Thanks for your comment, it was interesting to think about.
JessicaMelusine | September 03, 13:49 CET
Sunfire | September 03, 14:01 CET
If Joss is playing with sexual metaphor again, it will not be to actually go through with anything that messes with people's sexuality.
And whither Willow?
Given Xander's luck with women, it would be expected that Dawn would die. Not this time, because we all expect it.
Mor when I have time...
Dana5140 | September 03, 16:55 CET
Simon | September 03, 17:19 CET
"Humans point to the danger, not the safe."
"Saying it's easy makes it harder."
And a nice update on "Storyteller" too.
wiesengrund | September 03, 18:45 CET
I do see Oz's point but, well it's a problem I have and I think anyone can get into it. It's always tricky when we take any character as the author's mouthpiece, and I don't think it's fair to say this is Joss's idea.
I do have to question this whole storyline and Buffy's idea (and everyone else's going along with it, particularly Giles and Faith) of disarming themselves as a way of making the bad guys go away. I hate to use tired examples but Gandhi pulled it off against the British but Neville Chamberlain couldn't against the Axis. I don't think Twilight and his mob are the types who feel "I'm only afraid of you because you have that big, bad thing in your pocket & without it we'll be fine." They just don't seem like the type.
I have a second, more essential problem with it. Empowering all the Chosen was risky, and I'm sure that there were many bad results; empowering dleinquents who use Slayer powers to commit crimes or abusers who sue them to domiante others, innocwent girls who don't know they're empowered and accidentally hurt or kill someone by accident or due to perfectly normal temper flare-ups, girls ostracised or punished because of the powers. But it was by its inherent nature a Postive Act. An analogy would be awarding someone an inheritance free and clear without regard for hwo responsible they are; it might be disastrous, but usually it won't, and it's correct on paper.
I don't know if this giving up applies to all the slayers empwoered by Willow's spell or just those who are there on the spot and consenting. If it's all, that could be a grave mistake. A girl's strenght dese4rting ehr while she's surrounded by vamps or carrying people froma burning building, double plus ungood. It's like taking property thru eminent domain. It's by nature a Negative Act ,and so requires great justification. Which I don't think Buffy has provided.
Please note, I've seen enough episodes to know Buffy isn't Joss's mouthpiece. But my misgivings are grave.
DaddyCatALSO | September 03, 20:28 CET
And if I'm reading it right, that also means there's more consent going on here than it looks like. Kennedy, Satsu, et. al. may not be happy about it, but they are doing the work and the meditating--following Buffy's lead despite their misgivings.
And on an unrelated note, there are some nice subtle things in the art this time . . . anyone else notice that Buffy changed clothes before going back to talk to Xander?
erendis | September 03, 21:04 CET
wiesengrund | September 03, 21:53 CET
bishopcruz | September 03, 22:04 CET
On the magic note, I have changed my thinking. I think that Buffy and the group giving up magic is a mistake, simply because that's what Twilight wants: the banishment of magic. On a metatextual level, it's still iffy for me.
Giles_314 | September 03, 23:21 CET
Dana5140 | September 03, 23:21 CET
Xander, I don't think knew however. I just do not get that impression at all from the conversation.
bishopcruz | September 03, 23:35 CET
TwisTz | September 04, 00:00 CET
All the same, I'm not convinced that she's really in love with him. I think it's more a case of her longing for normality and connection, and (at least this season) he's the person who embodies both.
I'm also wondering if there's a chance Oz could be in league with Twilight. Seems like Oz would be on board with Twilight's ostensible goal--and while he clearly still cares about the Scoobies (especially Willow), they aren't his first loyalty anymore.
erendis | September 04, 00:18 CET
This season began with Xander as a possible love interest for Buffy from pretty much the second issue, and both he and Buffy and he and Dawn have the most scenes together this season. Was I certain that they would address the issue this season? Nope, as I said, there has been buildup before, and it has been dumped, often unceremoniously.
Will this move us towards an eventual Bander? Joss' formula says yes, but it will likely be a long and painful trip. Of course Joss' formula also makes it likely that Xander will now go evil, die, or all of the above. So who knows?
But the hints have been coming for Bander just as often this season as they have for Dander, so this seemed fairly organic on Buffy's part. Especially on rereading the issue.
As for the big-brother stuff? In restless I always took it as Xander's impression of how Buffy saw him at the time. It bothered him. I really did think that Restless had a lot of B/X moments, but that might just be me.
In either case, can't say enough how thrilled I am that they are finally addressing the ship. Bout damned time.
bishopcruz | September 04, 00:19 CET
"Xawn" and "xuffy" seem at least as reasonable to me.
jclemens | September 04, 00:42 CET
Granted that it may end badly, but age difference is no more a factor between Dawn and Xander than it was between Buffy and either Spike or Angel. And yes, while love triangles between siblings are kind of uncomfortable... they also actually do happen in real life.
jclemens | September 04, 00:48 CET
I don't have a moral problem with it, and it's not taking away from my enjoyment of the comic one bit. But still-- bad idea.
(I do have a real hard time buying that Buffy would have a thing for Xander, though. I just don't see that ever happening. I don't see Xander ever crushing on Buffy again either.
To put it in perspective, the last time Xander had a crush on Buffy, Willow still had a crush on Xander.)
dispatch | September 04, 01:16 CET
I don't mind Xander and Dawn so much really. I thought I would, but I think they've built it up well. But now that it's out in the open, we are really going to have to see some fleshing out of their relationship for me to buy it completely.
Giles_314 | September 04, 02:30 CET
Dana5140 | September 04, 03:19 CET
Giles_314 | September 04, 05:31 CET
I've thought she had feelings for him ever since that issue, and that she wasn't acting on them partly because of Renee, but mostly because she's afraid her Slayerhood is too dangerous, too likely to hurt anyone she's with (especially a non-super-powered person--Satsu, in that sense at least, was the safe option). So it makes perfect sense to me that she'd act on those feelings at this precise moment, when even Willow is seriously considering normality as an option.
Xander/Dawn was also IMO quite well set up, and this is one of the first times since Dawn's disenchantment that things have been calm and quiet (not necessarily their first snog, but makes sense they'd have more time for snogging now . . . and thus more chances of being caught).
All of which is to say: I thought it was really good writing, myself. :-)
(edited to fix html)
[ edited by erendis on 2009-09-04 06:08 ]
erendis | September 04, 06:07 CET
wiesengrund | September 04, 07:43 CET
DaddyCatALSO | September 04, 18:52 CET
phlebotinin, could the cracked egg by a reference to a line by the fool in King Lear? After he dissolves his power between his two daughters (a stupid political move), all the "yolk" of his being falls through and he's left in a quagmire. For Buffy, the stupid decision is the whole "retreating" approach and the heart-wrenching to follow. Just a thought. EDIT: Oh, and Andrew's "broken heart" symbol is a link from that issue to this one, and what it symbolises for magic and personhood etc.; and with the potential subtext, the orientation dialogue going on.
And a further comment would be while Xander is perfect for Buffy, it would be tragic in the long run. With Dawn (who is symbolically Buffy-with-the-potential-for-normality, literally "made" from Buffy) it feels like a way of fulfilling Xander's earliest storyline while not derailing the show with coupleyness. I will hold out that there can be genuinely no heartbreak to come for those two; the ick for the fans needs addressing through the voices of the characters, so a happy ending is needed otherwise it would be as if the show was "punishing" something as trivial as a 5 year age gap.
[ edited by Liam Mars on 2009-09-04 20:02 ]
Liam Mars | September 04, 19:56 CET
Xander and Dawn have always had the bond of being the two extraordinary ordinary people in a magical universe. Though Dawn came from magic, it it her flawed, but emotionally open humanity which is her most striking characteristic, as it is Xander's. Without special gifts of strength, healing or enchantment they have this nobility about them which comes from doing their best as they are, and not pretending to be, or even trying to be, what they can't be. Considering how much more vulnerable to pain they are, and how many fewer resources they have in a dangerous world, they may be the two bravest characters of the lot.
They are pretty much made for each other, IMO. Plenty of people become partners with people they knew when one was a child, there's no ick factor at all,in my view, as long as that part of the relationship didn't start when one of them was a vulnerable child.
toast | September 04, 22:56 CET
Also, I would think she would be worried about where Twilight is going, in regard to the end of magic. And Warren must understand that he would die without magic. I wonder if they all know that Twilight doesn't really intend to end magic.
I'm really suspicious of Oz trying to get them to give up magic since that seems to play into Twilight's hands. Plus, Oz's situation is different: He doesn't do good as a wolf, generally, while the Slayers try to do good as Slayers.
I hope that Twilight isn't Spike; that would mean regression for Spike once again, after Season 7.
Since the previous episode, I've been wondering why Twilight said he didn't think the Slayers were even in Mongolia, suggesting that that's where his crew was. Maybe the Slayers aren't really in Tibet, or maybe Twilight has a problem with geography.
The set-up with the puppy, in which the Scoobies thought he was the baby at first, and then Andrew saying he was suspicious of the puppy, made Andrew - and most readers, I suspect - less suspicious of the cat.
I liked when Andrew stumbles over "farther" and "further."
In a sense, Dawn has replaced Anya as the person who blurts out the truth in an awkward fashion, like Cordelia before her. It bugs me that Xander hooks up with women to whom he can feel superior.
I've never been a big fan of Xander, who has seemed the most shallow of the Scoobies. I've also never understood why people gave him a pass for attempting to rape Buffy, but then treated Spike differently. Yes, I know Xander was possessed with a hyena spirit, but his actions were laughed off. Isn't being possessed similar to not having a soul?
In the scene with the mines, Xander says they may be pointing to the safe, now that they are in Tibet. When Dawn encourages him to go for what he wants, we then see him with Buffy. In that scene, it seemed like Buffy was trying to tell him she loved him, but then it became clear she was talking about Willow.
After he said he would wait for her, it looks like he went for the "safe," Dawn, the person who he knew wanted him.
Suzie | September 05, 03:23 CET
Simon | September 05, 08:58 CET
On first read I wondered whether Buffy and Xander had done the deed in the page break (between "You tell me" and "I feel more now"), in a "deleted scene" so to speak.
mjwilson | September 05, 12:02 CET
[ edited by Giles_314 on 2009-09-05 21:18 ]
Giles_314 | September 05, 21:16 CET
I really hope Oz isn't the mole. Cause that would suck. And could possibly mean there'd be a death soon.
Also, go Dander! Dawn and Xander would be, IMO, much happier than Buffy and Xander could be.
Guestage Drew | September 05, 22:44 CET
GhostsWatcher | September 06, 01:02 CET
wenxina | September 06, 04:23 CET
Everything that I found most moving has already been touched upon, like the Buffy/Faith, Buffy/Xander, and Willow/Oz conversations. Seeing Buffy and Faith be this close after everything that's happened over the years really had my tear ducts working.
I'm honestly not sure how to feel about Dawn/Xander. On the one hand, it's cute, but on the other, it's just creepy. It feels weirdly incestuous.
UnpluggedCrazy | September 06, 08:21 CET
Ok, so in #26 Willow is using magic to hide the slayers new HQ, but doesn't cover up the magical signal coming from her magic and that of the slayers. Twilight uses this successfully in #26 to track them down and then unsuccessfully in #27. Buffy's response is to suppress the magic in the slayers and stop Willow using any more magic, in an attempt to hide.
Personally, I see a significant problem here. What is it that Willow is hiding with magic in #26? It's their physical presence in the world - not as magical beings, but simply as beings. This is very necessary as locating a normal person using magic must be one of the most simple spells. Willow's magic forces Twilight into locating them using a more complex technique - tracking the magic. By giving up magic Buffy neutralises this method, however with no magical defences, Twilight can simply locate them using (can you guess) magic! Preventing this is the reason that Willow is doing magic to hide them in the first place.
Amy suddenly discovering the slayers after Twilight's failed effort last issue does sort of make sense - Buffy's completely dropped her guard and made the slayers location obvious to anyone who can do a locator spell. Which, along with weakening her army before a fight, appears to be a truly idiotic idea. Not to mention that she's following the plan of Oz's group and look what happened to them - ripped apart by their enemies.
In counter-argument, I can offer a) We're being totally mislead as to what Buffy's plan really is (though that's tricky - given the conversations in this issue almost everyone else would have to be in the dark) or b) Twilight (or Amy) can't do a basic locator spell (hmm) and was in fact relying on the demons in Scotland to visually locate the slayers and Willow was simply hiding the HQ from them. However, in that case, Buffy had left them utterly open to being spotted by the demons in Tibet.
I should have posted this here before, but if anyone's still checking this thread, any thoughts on this? (Unless it's "you're taking this too seriously" ;).
NotaViking | September 07, 02:04 CET
I think Buffy really is going along with Oz's plan. Oz & co have not been torn apart by their enemies-- attacked yes, some killed, but they've survived and more importantly, on their own terms. As human.
What has bothered me for awhile is that Buffy's total plan seems to be A) find safe place; B) bulk up defenses; C) survive attack; D) abandon the bulk and escape and start over. But I think that's the point of "Retreat"-- survival has been all they can manage. And barely that. And now yeah, supposedly everyone's lacking their superpowers. And that seems like a terribly stupid plan in a lot of ways. The next attack's certainly going to be interesting.
The best Buffy scenes are always when everything's gone to hell and she does something no one expects. Something only Buffy would do. My expectations are pretty high for the next two issues for that reason. A powerless Buffy attacked by Twilight has a very oh no Angelus just disarmed her in a swordfight and she's all alone feeling to it.
Sunfire | September 07, 02:34 CET
GhostsWatcher | September 07, 04:19 CET
I feel unhappy now and i havent even read it yet. Again with the Dread! and Jane you better not kill of OZ!!
sorry that was an unhappy post.
treenie | September 07, 09:08 CET
Like treenie I found Xander and Dawn's relationship to be developing along less romantic lines. They were getting close, but as friends predominantly. Its hard to read chemistry in the pages of a comic book but throughout the tv series and the comics I never got a romanc vibe off them. It seems more of a set up for Buffy's crushing disappointment after she finally realises she could be 'normal' enough to have a relationship with the guy she cares about most.
I think its stands to reason that Oz is a mole of sorts. I find it hard to believe he would actually put all these young women and his old friends in lethal danger but he does have a family to protect now and he's clearly on the "magic is bad" side of the fence right now. Who knows how Twilight orchestrated everything, but if Twilight does turn out to be a familiar face then Oz may have good reason to trust him.
I personally found it pretty distressing watching all the girls lose their powers. That would feel so awful, yeah might be good for Faith and Buffy, but Satusu and Kennedy and all the other girls who like to fight, that was just so sad. And what happens to the world they're supposed to be protecting, do they just give up on people because Slayers have become the enemy?
I'm worried that this no powers lark is going to stick though, simply because it would explain Buffy's discovery in the future that there was no mention of the army of Slayers in any of Fray's books, and if they didn't go out with a bang, they probably went out voluntarily.
Which leads on to, despite everything, they appear to be making Fray's future world (which also makes sense with the future world not ending when Buffy killed FDW). Which means that Willow's dark path is not so much averted as flying at her headlong. I didn't think it washed that Oz would just trust Willow to watch his kid and she would suddenly have this revelation that if she just gave up magic and tried to live a normal life then everything would be better. Oz might be able to walk away from the magic life but I don't believe Willow ever can. In the coming battle they will need Willow to fight and that means magic. Besides which, ever since Buffy killed FDW, I've been thinking there must be more to the spell to empower all the Slayers and it will have dire consequences for Willow.
GhostWatcher, I've also wondered about the decline in postings in these discussion topics. I usually get my copy the day it comes out it the UK and usually come on here the same or following day and even by then all the posts have trailed out.
digupherbones | September 07, 12:15 CET
I don't know of what but I suspect her of something. Dawn and Xander came as a surprise to me and I'll have to watch that relationship for awhile before I see if it rings true for me. While I agree with toast that they seems to have been made for each other, I have also had major issues with some of his behaviour over the years- stuff for which he has never answered.
It is because it seems so profoundly stupid for the Slayers to give up their powers that I am really looking forward to the big showdown.
I love this issue. Jane E did it again.The dialogue was spot on and when I saw the Yak joke I laughed outloud. I could not believe she actually went there.
Lioness | September 07, 14:52 CET
I as several people have said, I loved the dialogue and personal interactions this issue. And I loved the yak moment too--the pun was great, and Buffy and Xander's expressions were just perfect. (One of those moments when you can see how much time Jeanty's spent learning the actor's expressions and mannerisms. Good stuff.)
erendis | September 07, 17:38 CET
barboo | September 11, 16:32 CET
We may see echoes of what happened to the one Slayer in Tokyo. :(
Sunfire | September 11, 16:47 CET
Also, the slayers giving up their powers can't end up good. Can't wait to see what happens (I second that I wish issues would come out bi-weekly though, with Joss's comic history, I guess we're lucky they come out every month).
E-Rawk | September 13, 03:32 CET
Not necessarily that he's Twilight ('cause in case the can't-be-in-two-places-at-once theory is proven easily false with explanations of magic duplicity--or y'know, robots), but perhaps in league with Twilight or on his own, following his own agenda.
My wild theory of the week.
Read the dialogue again and watch Giles in this issue, someone tell me I'm not crazy.
Kris | September 13, 06:59 CET
Has anyone else noticed that we're now in Astonishing X-men territory? Take the cure, give up your power, become normal, live a satisfying ordinary life. 'Course Buffy's been through this before. In "Helpless" she knew which choice she would make. Has she decided she would choose differently this time?
And I'm finally leaning toward Hank as Twilight. No particular reason, except that Twilight knows Buffy, and it's a major betrayal, and the usual suspects seem to be accounted for. Don't know what his motive might be. Or possibly Jonathon returned from the dead, and thinking the world would be better off without magic. The fact that Twilight seems tall - Jonathon would definitely go for that as his disguise.
barboo | September 13, 17:28 CET
Actually, I'm wondering if the betrayal might not be what's happening right now--Buffy betraying the other Slayers, and herself, by trying to be normal. (After all, as Kendra told her so long ago, being the Slayer isn't a job: it's her identity.) And if some of the Slayers we know end up dead because of this decision . . . well, I think that would qualify as "the closest, the most unexpected" betrayal.
Also, I may be crazy, but when it comes to Twilight's identity, I'm still Team Harth. ;-)
erendis | September 14, 00:24 CET
Sunfire | September 14, 00:37 CET
treenie | September 14, 03:23 CET
barboo | September 14, 15:54 CET
treenie | September 16, 02:13 CET