Buffy v. Edward creator talks about his popular mash-up.
Men don't usually guest post on Women in Media & News. But Jonathan McIntosh is "an aspiring feminist guy," and WIMN's executive director says he's "following in the footsteps of Buffy's 'sire' - Joss Whedon ..."
Vinity | July 03, 03:41 CET
FunkyBeccaBecca | July 03, 04:15 CET
And I'm not trying to flame anyone here who might be a fan of Twilight - if you can milk some light-hearted enjoyment out of it then good for you. I just dislike the fact that this has so captured the imagination and love of sooooo many teenage girls because I take issue with the points that were so eloquently raised in the linked article. Frankly the film left me with a very squicky feeling and frightened about the message young girls were taking away from it. Ending my rant now I will simply state the very obvious: I love Buffy. I'm so thankful that Buffy was the 'vampire franchise' I cut my teeth on. (-hee teeth bit unintended)
onthedrift | July 03, 04:59 CET
I do like Twilight, at least the novels, which were very enjoyable, if perhaps not conveying the best message of teen romance. Then again, I don't expect entertainment to preach to me about what I should want in life, or even in entertainment, and I think the parental bust up of Twilight's perceived anti-feminist values serves very little purpose if teen girls are intrigued by it-- and they are. Instead of admonishing Twilight for providing the scenario, perhaps we should ask why many women embrace it. Sometimes I find it a little repugnant that people are so judgmental of the readers of these books-- sometimes it gets a little "silly women/teenage girls don't know what they should be wanting!" Is that any better an attitude to have than the plot line of these books? Whether it's Edward, or the mainstream media, telling Bellas everywhere what's good for them, it doesn't sit well with me. I trust teenage girls to critically examine all the examples of romance on the table, from the doomed love affairs of Shakespeare they read in English class to the many troubled marriages that their parents and relatives choose to end to Twilight to Buffy to Gossip Girl, and so on. I navigated these waters myself, as I'm sure many of you have.
When I was a thirteen year old girl myself, I was raptly watching Buffy, looking to her for clues to everything from boys to parents to fashion. I held her up as my idol, and I've always felt that loving the show to distraction as I did made me who I am. But maybe who I am led me to love the show to distraction as I did-- Buffy was what I was waiting for all along, to solidify what I already felt about myself. I don't think any one television show, movie, or book series makes us who we are or defines our values. It is our character that we possess that leads us to entertainment that reinforces, or challenges, those same messages and values. For me personally, both Buffy and Twilight are a part of that.
I have to agree with the article that this clip is more far-reaching than just its surface entertainment value-- just like Buffy, and Twilight. In defense of Twilight, I will say that in the second and third books in the Twilight series, Bella's character develops quite a bit, apart from Edward, and comes into her own in a way. The books were written as a series and as a whole they capture a transformation that many teenagers go through as they fumble through their first love and really learn what a relationship is about, and this one follows Bella and Edward past the heated infatuation stage. The first book is not the end of the story-- and in the second and third, Bella comes to understand that she doesn't like Edward's more controlling behavior. Their relationship does mature, and does become more of a partnership as they navigate through it. I've had many in depth, deconstructive conversations with my sister, mainly centered on those two books, as there were many situations Bella found herself in that we could relate to. And there were definite times when I found Bella's conduct to be something I could decidedly admire, and other times I cringed at her-- she was written as certainly fallible and often mistaken, but writing off the series completely as only a shallow romance novel is missing a lot of what the story is about, and what does make it so appealing to so many.
All the progress is erased in the last book but, what are you gonna do.
[ edited by ailiel on 2009-07-03 08:22 ]
ailiel | July 03, 08:17 CET
It was definitely refreshing to watch this video, and the point it makes drives home.
I think Bella's character is captivating for her faults and her eventual growth and in the end you find that she stays true to her own beliefs even if she cannot control the world around her. She does her best to deal with the chaos of the world.
We (fans) may relate to Bella in this way, however Buffy is who every girls wants to be. To be in control and have the self confidence and power to overcome the obstacles of the world.
They are both archetypes for the female world, simply different stages of growth.
Bella is the (perhaps perceived) reality while Buffy is the hope, dream and hero.
mariec | July 03, 09:01 CET
ailiel | July 03, 08:17 CET
Making a video that uses humor to expose the Twilight male supremacy/female subservience message for what it is, sounds like a plan. Throw in writing an excellent article about what you were trying to get across and why .... icing on the cake.
Shey | July 03, 10:16 CET
It's probably fair to point out that the Angel also watches Buffy when she's asleep (even before he was Angelus) and that the first time he and Buffy met he was stalking her. And I think I remember Angel at one point confessing a desire to kill her (am I imagining that?). Spike obviously had desires to kill her even after he was in love with her ('first I'll kill her then I'll save her).
But still it's a great video with a great point
ETA: italics
[ edited by Let Down on 2009-07-03 10:34 ]
Let Down | July 03, 10:34 CET
Which is one of the reasons I don't like their romance either.
Neither Bangel nor, erm... Bedward (?!) was portrayed as that kind of problematical relationship as Spuffy was (cf. "Seeing Red"). I got no problem with creepy relationships, as long as they don't shy away from dealing with the creepiness.
wiesengrund | July 03, 11:10 CET
Pretty_Hate_Machine | July 03, 14:35 CET
Aaaaaaaaaaaamen!
Small Blue Thing | July 03, 14:50 CET
ailiel -- well said. My only response is that I rarely trust teens to think critically about anything without a little nudging in the right direction; I'm a teacher, so I know what they're capable of, but I also know they usually need someone to get them started.
Or at least I'll say that to keep my job...
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | July 03, 15:27 CET
marvelknight616 | July 03, 19:47 CET
I suppose the one of the main reasons I'm so lenient about Edward's behavior is that Stephanie Meyer did manage to reverse my least favorite gender stereotype. I've mentioned it here before, but when Edward and Bella are kissing, Bella says "more" and Edward says "no". It is so, so important for girls to get a chance to explore the fact that they want sex without being pressured to "follow through". Not that all guys/girls do that, but in terms of society, when your son has sex he's a stud, and when your daughter has sex she's a dirty girl. With that in mind, girls say no until they say yes, but they never really get the chance to explore wanting to say yes, which is just a part of being human and becoming an adult, dammit. I don't like how that storyline ultimately played out for Bella and Edward, but I love that the reversal was present. And off the soap box...
Anyway, I loved the mash-up video. It was smart and pertinent, and I love that Twilight has people discussing these issues, because as Joss has shown us, they were there all along.
ETA P.S. Bedward! *Snerk*
[ edited by heinouslizard on 2009-07-03 20:46 ]
heinouslizard | July 03, 20:36 CET
I thought there was too much lead in and not enough fighting. Guess I have to give some slack because it's 2 things edited together. I'm happy with it I suppose.
FaithsTruCalling | July 03, 21:18 CET
wiesengrund, I agree with you. Buffy's relationships with Angel and Spike were disturbing and creepy, and they were mostly shown that way. While we want romance and a happy ending, Buffy showed that love can be screwed up and messy. It also showed that, even if we make poor decisions and do stupid things, we can make the choice to change and survive them.
The stalker side of the early Angel was spelled out in the series. He used Buffy as a way to redeem himself. He was 240+ and attracted to a 15-year-old. Ugh. Spike's love was shown as truer, but he still behaved obsessively.
The fact that in the Season 8 comics Buffy has left both those relationships behind, at least for now (and Angel and Spike's stories being handled by a different publishing company may be part of that), is important. (I must admit I'm getting a wee bit tired of the main character love interest dying meme, though. And, please, the Willow and Kennedy relationship didn't work on the show; why is it still going on in the books?)
darkling | July 03, 22:47 CET
chance | July 04, 01:17 CET
Let Down | July 04, 01:20 CET
So were the Harry Potter books. Just sayin’ ;)
The problem with Twilight lies not in what it includes, but with what it does not: a thing Buffy happens to have oodles of, humanity. Placing characters in bad situations, no matter how immoral those might be, is not a reason for criticism; a failure to take responsibility for their humanity is. (Leaving aside a discussion on exploitation lurking in there somewhere.)
A romantic story about a passive, co-dependent woman and a possessive, abusive man can of course be brilliant. But for that the story needs to be aware of the dynamic and spend a bit of time finding what is human about it.
Twilight exhibits some staggering neglectful omissions in that regard. And even if they were intentional (I've read Meyers say she is not sexist, but speciesist) that would not excuse it in any meaningful way. Or it might, but certainly not when you are targeting young adults.
So yay for the guy who made the video and wrote that. Only criticism can fill the gaping hole within Twilight for me since I cannot muster the charity to do it otherwise; if other readers can then good for them. Not everything in one's life should be picked apart.
hence | July 04, 02:50 CET
silent knight | July 04, 02:54 CET
Angel did stalk Buffy, Buffy told him this was not okay with her. Angel turned evil and stalkerish AGIAN. Buffy killed him. Angel came back, they recoupled and eventually broke up for good because it wasn't working. Buffy SACRIFICED.
Spike, he was love's bitch but he knew that. He was evil and Buffy used him, something that the writer's made painfully clear was wrong. Spike tried to force himself on Buffy, she kicked his ass out (she did not try and kiss him again two days later).
Both Angel and Spike were not healthy for Buffy. She did not end up with either of them, I admire this about Joss and the writers. While the romantic in me wanted a happily-ever-after, reality makes for better storytelling. Bella and Edward are supposed to be the modern-day Romeo and Juliet. R and J died, for a reason, they were idiots.
luv4whedon | July 04, 02:56 CET
Also, it's getting a bit shippy in here, but I think this definitely portrays Edward in the Spike stalker way since I think most of Buffy's eyeroll scenes were toward that particular vamp. I don't think she was ever as exasperated with Angel after the first couple of episodes. Just saying.
DeathIsYourGift | July 04, 05:15 CET
DeathIsYourGift | July 04, 05:15 CET
Shippy? how about strrrretch-y? ;)
[ edited by Shey on 2009-07-04 10:16 ]
Shey | July 04, 10:16 CET
mysteryshadesman | July 04, 14:01 CET
I read all the books and I kept thinking Bella was going to grow, and she not only didn't evolve, she devolved as the books go one. She increasing abdicated her responsibility as the books went on. And the horrible thing was she was rewarded. Any "moral" aspects of the story presented was terribly twisted and I doubt any teen girl in the throes of hormones would be able to sort through all the unhealthy mess to find the the tiny gem of something positive.
Buffy showed a girl coming of age in exactly the same time frame and it showed her flawed making mistakes, idealistic first love with creepy {and Angel was always creepy, good or bad version} guy, but Buffy never gave up her responsibility. And she grew and learned from the experience, even then she still faltered but she kept moving. Buffy was more real than Bella ever thought of being. Buffy was flawed, made mistakes, bad decisions and we never saw her sort out a healthy romantic relationship but she was still a tremendous role model not for just teen girl but teen boys as well. Buffy taught not just teen but everyone what it was to be independent {but still have help and friends} and responsible, and even if you fail to keep moving and not dwell on you faults but try and do the best you can.
Bella's big claim to fame seems to be she didn't sleep with her boyfriend before marriage but that was his choice, not hers.
I'm sorry to the people that like Twilight. I have no problems with an adult woman to use it as some guilty pleasure fantasy but I truly believe it's damaging to young people's perspective.
Vinity | July 05, 17:41 CET
I see this idea stated as fact a lot but is there any real evidence that reading such books influences girls' ideas about relationships in adulthood? It just reads very moral panic to me.
Sunfire | July 05, 18:20 CET
So my fear is not that teenage girls will say, "Oh, Twilight's so awesome, let's all go find older guys to stalk us" -- I'm afraid that they'll use Twilight as mental justifications for unacceptable behavior. "Oh, well, my boyfriend's getting really stalkerish and possessive -- but Edward acted the same way to Bella and he LUUUUVS her, so it's okay, my boyfriend's just controlling me for my own good."
Girls (and some guys) get in abusive relationships all too easily, and it takes a lot of strength (such as they might learn from some other story, for example...) to say, "No more." If there's a social problem with what Meyer has written, above simply bad writing, it's that she may have given the victims in those relationships another reason to stay instead of leave.
ManEnoughToAdmitIt | July 05, 18:48 CET
Jeez Sunfire, whaddya hate children or something ? ;). Personally I think it might influence someone's idea of what their first, maybe second relationship should be like and then the reality becomes all too apparent (and as it turns out windswept moors play a relatively minor part).
That said, it's surely undeniable that we're partly formed by the culture we grow up in so it seems reasonable to assume that people are influenced to some extent by what they see and read, it's just the depths hidden within the phrase "to some extent" that makes it a hard question to answer. Probably impossible in fact since the powers that be are so tetchy about raising children under laboratory conditions. Anti-science fascists.
(and congrats on becoming blue BTW ;)
What is perhaps a bit more plausible is that they'll use their influences as excuses to do what they already wanted to do.
Yeah, that rings true for me. People can be enabled by fiction I reckon, they can use it as justification for doing what they already want to do (or, perhaps unhealthily, are attracted towards) but I doubt that reading/watching the "Twilight" stuff is going to have hordes of otherwise normal teenage girls growing up to believe that being stalked is how romance is supposed to work. Apart from anything else they have plenty of "plucky single mums" or "struggling career women" to influence them the other way.
Saje | July 05, 19:27 CET
Sunfire | July 05, 19:38 CET
Saje | July 05, 20:06 CET
You've been missed, Saje!
jcs | July 05, 22:28 CET
My vacuums were filled by books. I have always thought that I brought myself up by using books. Of course, they were mostly books with adventures and heroic quests and as many female characters that I could find...so who knows?
My 13 year old niece loves those Twilight books, but I'm not really worried about her. She has great parents. I am however tempted to tweak her by wearing an "...and then Buffy staked Edward. The end" t-shirt. Does that make me like, twelve?
Welcome back, Saje!
BreathesStory | July 05, 22:53 CET
I dunno "they" don't all say that (linkage). Can't offer much in the way of evidence myself though (not a parent though I am a peer. And been "peer"ed at for that matter). And ta BTW ;).
And I know what you mean re: books BreathesStory, I genuinely believe the way I saw the world at an early age was altered by what I was reading BUT i'm not convinced my world-view was substantially formed by one single author/novel/series. Though it could be I just wasn't that "in" to a single author/novel/series.
Well, it's not just nature/nurture, is it? It's also how important a part a work of fiction really plays in the nurturing.
OK, with the fiction thing added in it might take an extra couple of hours. So 1:00 am max. If we solve it early we can start on the Middle East.
Saje | July 05, 23:02 CET
Simon | July 05, 23:03 CET
Sunfire | July 06, 00:11 CET
Simon | July 06, 00:22 CET
Wuthering Heights, which someone mentioned upthread as another terrible set of role models, came across as really weird and got a bit mocked in class when I read it in school. A friend of mine used to re-enact the end of this scene from the movie over and over, because it was so over the top it became kind of hilarious.
Sunfire | July 06, 00:55 CET
Oh and sunfire, I was the one that mentioned Wuthering Heights in the same post that got me called on moral panic :D
[ edited by Vinity on 2009-07-06 01:51 ]
Vinity | July 06, 01:47 CET
TamaraC | July 06, 03:11 CET
I was a weird kid I think. At the age of twelve-thirteen I was also devouring Agatha Christie, Conan Doyle, Dumas, and Gone With The Wind. So far I haven't turned into a murderer, a private detective with scientific leanings, a swashbuckler, or a self-centered bitch.
However, I do think that those books might have influenced my sense of justice and started me thinking about good and evil in a meaningful way. I also fell in love with Abbe Faria's ideas about learning/knowledge which have influenced me up to this day. The Count of Monte Cristo is still on my "favorite fiction top ten list."
I don't think any of those stories are going to have the key to solving the Middle East problem though.
I do also remember reading the first V.C. Andrews book and I remember mostly thinking?/realizing? that the world was not very black and white and that people did indeed hurt their own family members and that bad things happened to little kids--only I don't think I was able to put it quite so clearly as that.
If I was to point to one set of books that influenced my idea of a suitable romantic man however... That would be Zane Grey hands down. I found them in the basement when I was ten? eleven? and even though there was more than enough heaving bosoms, what I really remember were the people, both men and women, trying to live up to a high set of ideals and standards. And the women were active. They did things and excelled at them--at least until they got together with "the guy" and then they sort of degenerated into cookie cutter, wimpy, bores. (I just sort of ignored that part though.) I find them a bit laughable now, but they were a big influence.
BreathesStory | July 06, 04:11 CET
I read everything Ayn Rand wrote when I was seventeen, and it took me years to totally get over it. It "gave me permission" to be utterly selfish and lacking in compassion for those less fortunate. It turned me into a little Social Darwinist for about a year.
But then again, I did get over it.
The message in Twilight is still male dominance/supremacy, and it's hard for a feminist like me, to see the impressionable young girls lapping up that garbage.
I personally think it's religious propaganda on the part of the author, which pisses me off even more.
Shey | July 06, 12:01 CET
barboo | July 06, 17:39 CET
As I say, no single book/author/series had that big an effect on me (though '1984' was a pretty big one for me too) but sci-fi in general along with detective fiction probably contributed to me seeing the world along rational lines (I don't think you were that weird a kid BreathesStory ;). Both genres kinda take it as read that things make sense on some level, even if it's sometimes hard/impossible to actually find out how.
And then there's non-fiction of course (was very taken by "The Armchair Universe" by AK Dewdney as a teen for instance and i'd bet there's a path from there to IT if I were to look. Stephen Jay Gould's essays also featured largely in the 80s for me and 'The Selfish Gene' was a "big" book for me around then too).
And films and TV contributed a lot too so Doctor Who, Columbo, Wargames and too many others to mention all led to the current me (so yeah, it's all Matthew Broderick's fault).
Saje | July 06, 19:28 CET
Welcome back, mate. The twin stars of sanity & erudition twinkle once again today...tonight. Whatever.
QuoterGal | July 06, 20:31 CET
Saje | July 06, 21:38 CET
As far as film goes...the first/forth? Star Wars was HUGE for me followed closely by Kung Fu which I saw in reruns. It was my very first exposure to eastern thought and kicked off a love that persists to this day. (And if they would ever release the original cut I'd buy the bloody thing!) All those courses in Chinese History (I was an art major. ;)), the fascination with tea and Buddhism, the obsession with anime (BLEACH RULES!)...all David Carradine's fault.
BreathesStory | July 06, 23:25 CET
Bella IS a character I related to...when I was a teenager. That's probably why I read the first book to begin with, I remember feeling the "can't wait to see him at school, oh wow, he touched my hand" stuff. I was a teenager once, I get that. However, Buffy was my role model, she was the character I looked to while in high school; I wished I were that strong. I think someone else said it in this thread; Bella is who I was and Buffy is who I wanted to be. I think the main reason I get so heated about Twilight is that it tells girls it's ok to get lost in throws of first love even if the guy you're with is abusive. I continued to read, even whilst knowing it was poorly written, because I wanted Bella to stand up for herself, wanted her to realize all the mean in her life sucked (some literally). But, she didn't. The author basically said Bella should suck it up and let the men continue being abusive; she's just a human/woman, she doesn't understand what it's like to be supernatural/man. I don't think Twilight should be banned from the market, there are LOTS of other horrid books that promote anti-feminist values. However, I do hope that the ubber fans eventually find other works of fiction, may it be books, movies, poety, ect.. that offer them some levity.
I still stand by my Twilight Sucks opinion and wish it wasn't so popular. But, if I'm being truly honest with myself, I understand the appeal for teenagers and those who remember being a teenage girl, I just don't like it!
To add my two cents about what I read as a kid = Goosebumps, RL Stine books, The Saddle Club, The Babysitter's Club, The Thoroughbred Farm and some Sweet Vally High.
luv4whedon | July 07, 17:31 CET
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