Whedonesque Mobile : Comments on 17086 : (SPOILER) IDW releases cover art for Angel and Spike comics.

Angel: Aftermath...

Great more money to be spent on Buffyverse comics. Not being the hugest fan of A:ATF I'm not exactly squeeing my pants off with the news, but I'll certainly be reading the continued canonical stories of Angel and the crew.

If they are canon that is...wouldn't mind getting some word from Joss on this though.

P.S - The only new cover is the one 'This is your Life' Angel one yeh? The other two ive seen already. Not a bad cover. Kinda fun.

[ edited by aus-mitch on 2008-07-27 07:14 ]

aus-mitch | July 27, 07:12 CET

There is a new Spike cover at the bottom, too.

Best news since... well, I don't know. Months. Many, many months. The "Angel" book is where my heart is, so I'm so excited that this is going to continue. Almost speechless, which is saying a lot.

patxshand | July 27, 07:21 CET

Cool covers! The last one for Spike is that the new "big bad" little girl Brian was telling us about in S:ATF? I like her evilish delighted smirk. Strangely though, Spike doesn't look like himself in that one. I hope to see Spike in "Angel: Blood and Trenches", Brian does know how to write him oh-so-well. :)

Mirage | July 27, 07:35 CET

Well your not really speechless at all if your saying a lot now are you... :)

aus-mitch | July 27, 07:39 CET

Great news ! I'm thrilled that there is going to be a continuation of Angel's adventures following on from 'After the Fall.' 'Blood and Trenches' sounds pretty interesting as well.

Shade of Pale | July 27, 08:37 CET

Aww... it's Liam as a little boy, 1800s Angelus (mouth is a bit wide), what probably is a modern Angelus, two modern Angels and Angel as an old man. I'm quite overcome with gushy feelings (I'm open with the fact that he's my favorite character).

It seems we either are going to get Angel back as a vampire, he will grow old sometime in the future (Illyria's futuristic timeslips for both Angel and Spike showed Fray's timeline) or Angel will get to grow into an old man with long hair and a beard. The plot thickens.

The new Spike one is also nice. And yep, that's the new baddie girl. Her outfit is Tarzan's Jane meets the Patchwork Girl of Oz. Heh. Nice consistency with a few familiar faces from Spider's Playmates brigade (the 7-foot-tall noseless demoness and the green girl with forehead horns, for example).

I definitely have more excitement for ATF than Season 8. And to the poster who asked--First Night, Spike: After the Fall and Angel: After the Fall are all canon.

It would be interesting if Hell-A maybe spit the Fang Gang and the rest of L.A. out sometime in the future (going by the timeslips showing both Angel and Spike in Haddyn). It is a possible theory for how the lurks came into Fray's timeline after the banishment of magic.

Also enjoyed the Ghostbusters covers.

NileQT87 | July 27, 08:41 CET

With ATF's sales for IDW, there was little doubt that they'd keep the comics going. Love the news and the covers, and I second the desire to hear Joss on this.

Perseo | July 27, 08:41 CET

Nile, I was actually pondering whether Angel: Aftermath will be considered canon, i.e. will Joss continue his executive producing, or overseeing or whatever it is he does that gives it that shiny canony gloss.

aus-mitch | July 27, 08:51 CET

Angel: Aftermath sounds like it's just the finale of the series. No different than the other titles in the grouping.

In chronological order:
First Night
Spike: After the Fall
Angel: After the Fall
Angel: Aftermath

It really isn't just "After the Fall". It's more like a miniseries version of season 6 (or episodes 5x23+) told in several sections with different names. That makes it a series with 4 sections and 20 issues. 20 issues is roughly half a season, going by Buffy season 8's 40-issue season.

NileQT87 | July 27, 11:38 CET

Yes! So happy that there is going to be more Angel comics. I kinda had no doubt that there would be - but it is nice to get confirmation. Very exciting:)

angeliclestat | July 27, 12:43 CET

So more Angel is coming,great news.Brian Lynch is doing a flashback miniseries about Angel in World War I.And a post Angel:After The Fall miniseries called Aftermath.I have no doubt Aftermath is canon in the same way as ATF and probably with Joss invovlment.Not sure about Blood and Trenches although I'm sure it will be great read either way.It says Brian is writing Angel:Blood and Trenches but is Brian writing Angel:Aftermath?

The covers look great.Cover for ATF #14 looks like it shows Angel at all different ages and points in his life and unlife including as an old man.

Buffyfantic | July 27, 14:03 CET

aus-mitch - Joss doesn't "executive produce" the AtF comics the way he does with the Buffy Season 8 comics. Joss co-plotted the first 9 issues of Angel:AtF, but had little to no input on the later issues and Spike:AtF.

Invisible Green | July 27, 15:13 CET

aus-mitch - Joss doesn't "executive produce" the AtF comics the way he does with the Buffy Season 8 comics. Joss co-plotted the first 9 issues of Angel:AtF, but had little to no input on the later issues and Spike:AtF.

I was under the impression that Joss co-plotted all 16 issues of ATF but isn't co-plotting Spike:ATF although he co-plotted Spike's arc in the main series which will be reflected in Spike:ATF.

Anybody else think old Angel on the cover looks like Dracula in Wolves At The Gate,during issue 13,right before Xander and Renee met up with him?

Buffyfantic | July 27, 15:33 CET

So excited there will be more Angel. I am enjoying it so so much.
That's pretty huge if that picture of Angel as an old man is accurate. Wow.

That bloody Spike fight one is pretty intense.

Xane | July 27, 15:58 CET

Wonderful news! The Angel comics are my favorite Whedonverse thing right now, great to hear Brian will be returning for at least one mini-series!

fiatlux | July 27, 16:18 CET

This is great news! I love both the Buffy and Angel comics equally, but there�s something more satisfying about reading an Angel issue. To me, each one seems to equal a full TV episode. I only get that feeling with Buffy after the four issue arc is finished or one of Joss� stand alones. Just my opinion. It�s just that darn month between releases.

Brian Lynch is doing a wonderful job, and the Fred Sonja line still cracks me up.

EvilElecBlanket | July 27, 16:25 CET

Great news! Love the title, too, it's the aftermath of what?

Seeing Angel as an old man is extremely freaky and unexpected.
(But it's mainly because he looks kinda Charlton Heston-y.)

Regarding Joss's input, Issue 10 proclaims itself to be "Joss Whedon's After the Fall." The credits thank him and refer to him as a "watcher". The IDW site states that Joss and Brian Lynch plotted the story and I vaguely recall reading (here?) that he retains final approval for the series before it goes off to be printed.

Maybe someone in the know *cough Brian* can clarify this for us, if they're ever in the neighborhood. (/hint)

missb | July 27, 17:02 CET

Well I personally think it's time to give IDW and Lynch a break, and stop this whole 'is it canon' debate. They are the publishers of the official Angel storyline, and everything from them from now on can be considered canon IMO. From the quality product they have been putting out for the last year...I think that is the least we can do.

angeliclestat | July 27, 17:43 CET

Brian made some major clarifications over at the IDW forum.

http://www.idwpublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4353&start=15

hey guys! Con is going great, I have met some great, great ANGEL and SPIKE and EVERYBODY'S DEAD fans.

I just found out about BLOOD AND TRENCHES on Wednesday. It sounds cool, but I have nothing to do with it. The internet, for once, is wrong. As for who IS doing it...

...it's good. Really good.

As for ANGEL:AFTERMATH, one of the writers was announced at the panel but for some reason it wasn't mentioned in the article. It too, is really good news. Ryall and I met with this person yesterday to talk about it. I'm gonna let Ryall spill all.

Back to signing!

So it sounds like Brian isn't writing Angel:Blood and Trenches.We'll have to wait to find out who the writer is.

On Angel:Aftermath,it also sounds like Brian isn't writing that either but I can't really tell.Maybe he's co-writing?Sounds like it has more then one writer and one of them was announced at the panel but they didn't mention it in the article.

I wonder if the writers are people who have worked in the verse before?Also wonder why the one writer announced for Aftermath wasn't included in the panel report?Maybe Chris or Brian asked them to hold back.Kind of intersting that Aftermath has more then one writer.Again,I wonder if it's anybody we are already famillar with?

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-07-27 19:52 ]

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2008-07-27 19:55 ]

Buffyfantic | July 27, 19:39 CET

Oh that's bad news. I have been extremely pleased with Brian's writing.
Now instead of happy I'm worried.

Xane | July 27, 19:52 CET

It's a pity Brian isnt writing it...bit Xane I wouldnt be worried - Brian seems very excited about who is coming on board for the Angel line. And I am excited to find out:)

angeliclestat | July 27, 20:58 CET

By the way-is there anyway to find out more from the IDW panel?Have there been any more reports on the Angel news from other websites or blogs? Am dying to know more:)

angeliclestat | July 27, 21:07 CET

They are the publishers of the official Angel storyline, and everything from them from now on can be considered canon IMO.

I don't agree with that.

While I'm going to consider First Night, Spike: After the Fall and Angel: After the Fall canon, I'm less than happy with inclusion of characters from former comics being included with the characters we know. And I'll reserve judgement on Angel: Aftermath and the WW1 story until I see who's writing them.

Because frankly, if it doesn't come from Joss or ME, it might as well be fanfic. IMO, of course.

menomegirl | July 27, 21:36 CET

angeliclestat,I haven't seen any other IDW panel reports around yet.I've been checking around.

Buffyfantic | July 28, 00:48 CET

I'm wary of more canonical Angel stories by Brian. I haven't been hugely impressed. If the comics are going to continue I'd much rather some show writers came on board and that Lynch was one of a number of writers

Is that true that Joss wasn't involved in plotting the final issues of ATF? That seems odd - surely when Lynch and Whedon plotted it out, they planned the ending.

And is Spike: ATF canonical? Does anyone know what Joss knows about it?

And here's a spanner to throw into the canon / not canon debate: is a story canonical if Joss says so but doesn't know what's actually happening in it?

Let Down | July 28, 01:54 CET

All I know about Spike: ATF is that Whedon's name isn't on it, so if canon issues bother you, don't get it. I get the impression that it isn't a story that was talked over with Joss like Angel: ATF was (if it was run by Joss at all). That said, it is by Lynch and is set during the time between Spike's First Night appearance and regular series debut, so I don't mind that Joss may not have planned this particular part of the story. It's well written and doesn't break canon that we know.

archon | July 28, 03:00 CET

Thanks. Canon issues do bother me but I guess I'll at least read it

Let Down | July 28, 03:11 CET

Brian has said over on IDW a while back that Joss made sure that Spike:ATF was in line with Spike's arc in the main ATF series.He didn't co-plot the series with Brian like he did with the main ATF story but Joss is very aware of what's in Spike:ATF and gave his approval that it matches Spike and Illyria's arc for the main story.

Spike:ATF is a way for some blanks to be filled in that couldn't be filled into the main ATF series due to space.

Buffyfantic | July 28, 03:16 CET

So much odd speculation in this thread.

Brian Lynch | July 28, 04:56 CET

"So much odd speculation in this thread."

You say that like you've never been here before, Brian. ;)

As for canon, I'm a Doctor Who and Highlander (shocker, huh?) fan. If I worried about canon then not only would my head likely explode but I'd miss out on some really good stories. I know that canon means a lot to some people and I also prefer to know what is "officially" part of the true story but at the same time I'm not going to worry about it to the point of not reading a damn good story unless I get official word from Joss.

If it makes you feel better then look at it this way. Angel:ATF is clearly canon and logically it would make no sense to release a Spike:ATF series that wasn't also canon. Personally I'd take it that any stories we are told tie directly to Angel:ATF are to be considered canon unless Joss specifically says otherwise. Until you know better then just enjoy these really good stories for what they are.

Bored Now | July 28, 12:12 CET

I was at Comic Con on Thursday when they had the Doctor Who panel, and Steven Moffat said (semi-jokingly) that there could NEVER be an out of canon Doctor Who episode because it's a show about time travel where history is often re-written. :)

archon | July 28, 12:29 CET

Brain being excited about the new writers coming in has me pondering if they are writers from Buffyverse� and I really can't wait to find out. I've been loving A:ATF and S:ATF and will be counting the days until more come out.

Doctor Who and Torchwood (and once long ago Highlander) for me are a fun watch whenever I'm watching, and simply that. I don't really invest in them my thoughts that much after a particular arc ends - nowhere near what I do for anything Whedonverse.

Mirage | July 28, 12:36 CET

That's the way I like to think about it too, archon. Of course, that means that I have to accept that the Doctor's Universe, the Transformers Universe and the Marvel Universe are connected and all canon to one another (due to the fact that Death's Head's story has played a part in all of them).

Damn wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey continuity. ;)

Bored Now | July 28, 12:37 CET

Because frankly, if it doesn't come from Joss or ME, it might as well be fanfic. IMO, of course.

menomegirl

Well I think canon has very little to do with the quality of what you're reading. We all have different tastes, and thats reflected in what we're reading and how we view the final result. If you don't like what your reading, whether it's canon or not shouldn't influence you as to how you perceive the quality of the story.

I mean for example although Buffy season 8 is canon, it comes across to me as some kind of awful fanfic, so there ya go....

sueworld2003 | July 28, 13:08 CET

Sophie on the IDW board said that Brian mentioned wanting to re-visit the Asylum and Shadow Puppets verses. If that means that someone else will write the Angel comics so that Brian can write more Spike, I am totally all for that.

I don't like the way the Buffyverse has gone so I stopped reading it, therefore it's not canon for me. I keep up on what's happening through other people's descriptions and if it ever starts seeming Buffyish to me again, I'll pick it back up.

I love the Angelverse, am avidly reading it, so it's canon. For me.

Xane | July 28, 15:16 CET

Despite my earlier comment I would have to argue that canon isn't something any individual fan can decide on. Canon is just what the show/comic/movie's creator(s) dictates it to be. What we can decide for ourselves is what part of that canon we are going to bother taking an interest in.

For example, the Buffy Season 8 comics are canon to everyone who follows the Buffyverse whther you like it or not but you can choose to not bother reading that part of the canon, if you wish. It's kind of the flipside of my thinking that you should allow yourself to enjoy any story that you happen to want to read even if it's not canon. Canon has a definite meaning and cannot truthfully be decided by the fanbase but it also shouldn't be a guideline that dictates what you do and do not choose to watch or read.

Basically, the writers get to decide what is canon but you get to decide what is good. ;)

And yeah, I'd have no problem with new writers on Angel if it meant that Brian concentrated on Spike. Certainly works for me.

Bored Now | July 28, 16:14 CET

I'm Sophie over at IDW, I don't want to start any false rumors. At various times on the IDW board, Brian has mentioned wanting someday to go back to the Asylum and Shadow Puppets characters. I can't speak for him (of course) and this doesn't mean any series will for sure happen. Just that it's been mentioned in a few off hand posts, so there's hope that Brian might return to the Angelverse one day. But nothing is set in stone, as far as I know from the posts on the IDW board.

A hand-off would need to happen sometime to keep Angel going, as writing the comics seems like a lot of work. I'm willing to give IDW the benefit of the doubt that they will pick authors who can do the series justice.

[ edited by fiatlux on 2008-07-28 17:31 ]

fiatlux | July 28, 17:28 CET

Why not have several issues written by fan fic writers? No one knows the material better than them. From what I recall there's been Star Trek anthologies which had stories written by fans. IDW have gone out of their way to accomodate the fans and it would be the logical next step.

Oh and the Spike:After The Fall and Angel:After The Fall volume 3 hardcovers are listed over at Amazon.ca but they have a placeholder release date of March 2009. So at least we know they're in the pipeline.

Simon | July 28, 17:38 CET

Newsarama confirmed Angel:Aftermath will be out in 2009 and be written by several new writers. I too, smell, Whedonverse authors.

Perseo | July 28, 18:33 CET

Here's that Newsarama link.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080726-comicon-idw.html

Buffyfantic | July 28, 18:45 CET

canon isn't something any individual fan can decide on. Canon is just what the show/comic/movie's creator(s) dictates it to be.

I agree with that. However, IDW is not Joss Whedon. Just because they're planning on doing more Angel comics does not automatically make said comics canon simply because they're the publishers of Angel: After The Fall. Like I said, if it doesn't come from Joss or ME, it might as well be fanfic.

menomegirl | July 28, 18:46 CET

I love the positivity of Whedonesque users. Things that are worthy of woots, squees, and parties always seem to turn into complaint-fests when the links hit this site. It's unfortunate.

We're getting more Angel. There are more writers. Might be more Brian Lynch, might be from the show writers, might have outlines from Joss, might have none of that. So what? It's more Angel. Don't worry, be happy.

patxshand | July 28, 19:15 CET

I love the positivity of Whedonesque users... Don't worry, be happy.

I'd like to think that Whedonesque users are concerned about the future of the franchise. IDW's Angelverse track record hasn't exactly been a knock out success from the beginning. The initial stuff was particularly absymal and by the time After The Fall was about to come out, orders had dropped to about a third of what they initially were. If it wasn't for the Spike stuff, the hardcore fandom would have lost interest completely.

However IDW have given it their all with After The Fall and should be commended with it. In some ways they've left Dark Horse way behind (the first HC would put Marvel and DC to shame). So over all I'd give them 7/10 for their handling of the franchise.

Simon | July 28, 19:31 CET

The SPIKE stuff you're referring to (I think ASYLUM and PUPPETS, maybe, not sure) sold about as well, if not a little worse, than the other stuff. And the PUPPETS stuff was AFTER the announcement was made that Franco and I had been recruited for ATF.

Brian Lynch | July 28, 19:41 CET

"I agree with that. However, IDW is not Joss Whedon. Just because they're planning on doing more Angel comics does not automatically make said comics canon simply because they're the publishers of Angel: After The Fall."

Which is pretty much what I already said. My earlier point was that logically anything that IDW do that is to be directly linked to the canon series would likely be supposed to be canon as well and with that in mind a fan may as well consider it to be so until official word is given either way. Just enjoy the story for what it is and let the canon/not-canon issue rest until you know for sure.

Like I said above, there are people that aren't even considering some of the actual canon to be canon these days so at this point I'd say the best bet is to go with what you enjoy, rather than limiting yourself to what you are told is canon. If Angel:Aftermath is eventually outed as "non-canon" then that's just the way it is. If you enjoyed the story then what does it matter?

Bored Now | July 28, 19:59 CET

the best bet is to go with what you enjoy rather than limiting yourself to what you are told is canon

Oh, I do. Every time I click on a link to a piece of fanfiction that's plotted out perfectly and written so well that I can hear the character's voices or when I click on a link to a 100 word drabble that defines a small moment from either series that moves me so much that it makes me wish the shows were still on the air or when I click a link to an essay or work of meta a fan thought seriously about and took the time to write and post.

So actually, I'm not limiting myself at all.

menomegirl | July 28, 20:55 CET

And just remember as well, even the the Buffy season eight comics have been declared canon by Joss, he himself said he would throw it out if it interfered with a movie.

So, there you have it. The whole canon/non-canon thing is just kind of irrelevant.

Xane | July 28, 21:00 CET

Yep, good point xane

sueworld2003 | July 28, 21:14 CET

That is a good point, Xane. Joss could do that, if he wanted. These are his characters; he created them. It's up to him what's canon and what is not.

I'd call that very relevant.

menomegirl | July 28, 21:38 CET

Isn't that known as a retcon, though? Something that was once canon but is now rewritten is kinda bad writing form. Not to say I wouldn't love a new Buffy movie or anything, though.

archon | July 28, 22:13 CET

Yes, that would be a retcon.

menomegirl | July 29, 00:34 CET

As I understand it, a retcon is more about adding new information to existing historical canon. Say, for example, Joss creates a new character that was fighting demons in Sunnydale at the same time as Buffy but we never saw them during the show for whatever reason. It wouldn't change the story as we knew it, as such, but add to it and perhaps go as far as to change our understanding of the characters and events we knew at the time. Joss choosing to un-canon the story we have seen in Buffy Season 8 and entirely recreate his vision of what happened after the show ended would be less retcon and more a completely new version of the Buffyverse story. The comic book Season 8 becoming nothing more than a glorified What If? scenario. Although I suppose you could consider it the ultimate in retconning, if you like. ;)

Bored Now | July 29, 00:51 CET

Okay, I hate to be all picky and repetitive, but I really want to know if these are going to be canon.

If not--even if they're good--I don't have enough money to buy them. I accept both After the Fall series as canon, so I'm picking up every ish, but it really would be nice to have some Joss clarification on this.

UnpluggedCrazy | July 31, 13:05 CET

July 27 2008