Whedonesque Mobile : Comments on 16618 : (SPOILER) Jane Espenson writes a letter to TV Squad about the Battlestar Galactica mid-season finale.

that haunting devastated city there, with the massive ruined temple and our people trying to find their footing in a strange dead city I did not recognize

Thereby dusting the theories I've seen posted that said city was Manhattan as seen from the vantage point of a ruined Brooklyn Bridge?

theonetruebix | June 16, 21:03 CET

I thought it was Manhattan too...

UnpluggedCrazy | June 16, 21:08 CET

I thought it looked like ruins too! I loved the episode and thought it was fantastic!

Firefly Flanatic | June 16, 21:14 CET

Not necessarily dusted. It's a strange and dead city unrecognizable to the colonials, certainly. It might even be said to be unrecognizable (in its destruction) to us. And what is referred to here as a "temple" could be nothing more than the remains of some Port Authority building or something. Or alternatively it could actually BE a "temple", just one that was built/converted for that purpose at some point still in OUR future, before the original tribes left Earth. We won't know for sure till the end of the series, if then.

Haunt | June 16, 21:15 CET

Somehow, I was expecting it to be New York (being, for my money, the most iconic and recognisable city in the US) so I was on the lookout for any hints in the ruined architecture and didn't spot anything...

On reflection, I think unidentifiable was totally the right way to go - what a moment that was! Amazing episode. Do we really have to wait till 2009?! Are there enough good 1-hour-dramas to keep me going till then? 'Mad Men' is the only show I'm excited about that isn't months away...

Gil-Martin | June 16, 21:19 CET

Very true Haunt! We won't know for sure until the show comes back but I love the questions it raises not knowing for sure!!

Anyone know if this half season will be released on dvd before the other half airs?

Firefly Flanatic | June 16, 21:24 CET

I thought it looked like ruins too!

Erm, that was never in doubt, or the issue. The issue is that Jane's remark seems to undo the suggestion by some fans that the ruins in question were New York City. Unless she's involving herself in intentional misdirection.

theonetruebix | June 16, 21:27 CET

Jane: "It's so gray, in fact, that I think it earns the British spelling. It's grey, which is even worse."

I've always thought that the British spelling of grey looks greyer than gray, which has too much red in it.

And b!X, are you interpreting her use of "unfamiliar" and "strange dead city I did not recognize..." and so on to definitively rule out Manhattan? I mean, I thought it could be either 1) Manhattan or 2) San Francisco or 3) somewhere else entirely, but I don't see Jane's letter (even including "despite the lack of indication of any continents") as ruling out a devastated Earth. I think everything she said could apply to a ruined Earth-that-was.

QuoterGal | June 16, 21:27 CET

Or alternatively it could actually BE a "temple", just one that was built/converted for that purpose at some point still in OUR future, before the original tribes left Earth.

Didn't the original tribes leave Kobol, and the 13th colony went off on their own to Earth? Or am I confused about the mythology of my favorite show?? Possible. Can anyone clear that up for me?

I'm so glad Jane is talking about this, thus enabling US to talk about it HERE! I love this show so much, and I have nobody to talk about it with except my husband, who is tired of me yapping questions he can't answer at him and just grumbles about 2009.

I have never ever feared for the life of a character as much as I did for Tigh in the airlock (Tony Soprano comes second). I literally sobbed. This is the only thing currently on my "can't-die-til-I-know-the-end-of-the-story" list. I'm being extre-e-emely careful when I cross the road. Stop, Look, and Listen. Yep.

So what is going to HAPPEN now?

catherine | June 16, 21:33 CET

QG, I am interpreting it that way, yes, because one would think that she would actually know what city it is, if it's one of our cities. So saying "strange dead city I did not recognize" is iether a statement that it isn't one of our cities, or it's her putting herself into the mind of some hypothetical viewer who doesn't yet know for sure what city it is.

I never said her remarks "[ruled] out a devastated Earth". I said her remarks suggest it's not a city that can be recognized, despite some fans claiming to have recognized it.

theonetruebix | June 16, 21:39 CET

I just kept waiting for them to pan behind the statue of liberty, and Adama to thrust his fist in the air and yell "noooooo" as ape-men started to appear from behind the rubble.

Luckily, the writers aren't that hackneyed. :)

RayHill | June 16, 21:39 CET

b!X: "So saying "strange dead city I did not recognize" is iether a statement that it isn't one of our cities, or it's her putting herself into the mind of some hypothetical viewer who doesn't yet know for sure what city it is.

Or thirdly, she may know what city it is, but the devastation has rendered one of our cities unrecognizable, and these are the words she is using to underline the extent of the damage.

And sorry I misunderstood, I thought your remarks were ruling out our Earth by implying that hers ruled out Manhattan... and so on (San Francisco, etc.) by extension.

ETA: And yeah, while I watched this ending, I heard "you damn dirty apes" playing faintly off somewhere in my head, but luckily no signs of anything like that in this show.

[ edited by QuoterGal on 2008-06-16 19:08 ]

QuoterGal | June 16, 22:01 CET

I loved this episode, but nothing trumps the last scene in Jane's episode, "The Hub." I started crying from the moment he stepped out of that raptor. And when she said what she said... I don't remember the last time TV made me cry like that, but I bet it was Buffy.

swanjun | June 16, 22:03 CET

Rayhill, me too!
I did think it was Manhattan they were all looking at as well.

And I did see the ships as all "running" to get to Earth. Funny she put it that way because that's what I was thinking too. Like a bunch of school kids running towards the playground at recess. Only with more urgency. And rocket power engines.

NYPinTA | June 16, 22:06 CET

Question: Did they really establish that the final cylon is not among the fleet? Or is it just someone Three doesn't know? Because I'd find it kind of cheap if people were trying to guess the identity all year, only to have it all be pointless.

Funny, the ships "running" to Earth made me think of a Reaver attack. ;)

hacksaway | June 16, 22:14 CET

Heh. That wasn't Earth. That was Miranda.

NYPinTA | June 16, 22:18 CET

Story-wise, for it to be "not earth" would be a bit cheap, and I do think that ruling out Finding Earth as the big finale is brave and brilliant. Then again, Roslin the "dying leader" wasn't supposed to see Earth, so that suggests maybe it isn't?

I have to admit, re. the city itself, I think it would be sort of silly for it to be Manhattan (of all the places in the world... although I guess if they were following a signal or something maybe that would make more sense), but I don't care much one way or the other and I doubt that question will get answered. They have too many other questions to answer in... how many remaining episodes? Ten?

Re. the final unrevealed cylon, what clues there are seem to point towards the viper Starbuck came back in. The exact same viper, but entirely new (resurrected), communicating somehow with the other cylons and leading them to earth. I'm invisibling IN CASE I'm right but we shall see!

catherine | June 16, 22:18 CET

Three said a couple of times that it wasn't among the fleet. Maybe she could've felt their presence even if she hadn't personally met them.

My friend had a theory that the last Cylon is on earth, and was responsible for the flawless viper Kara came back in.

ETA: Invisibility!

[ edited by swanjun on 2008-06-16 19:20 ]

swanjun | June 16, 22:19 CET

Well, is it possible then that the final cylon is someone we did know, but "died"?

hacksaway | June 16, 22:30 CET

Well yes, there is the question of the "Final Five" supposedly having been to earth, and yet the four we know of haven't as far as they / we know. But the viper has been. Does the viper count as part of the fleet, though?

catherine | June 16, 22:31 CET

She said that the fifth wasn't in the fleet -- but she said this when they were standing on the baseship, which was not, at that point, with the fleet. Ponder the implications. And the fifth isn't the Viper. Three saw five humanoid figures in her vision, not four humanoid figures and a Viper.

And the only person saying the five have been to Earth is Starbuck. All the hybrid said is that they "come from" the home of the 13th. They could "come from" Earth in the same way that I "come from" Poland just because my ancestors did.

(Why are we invisotexting when this thread is marked as a spoiler anyway?)

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-16 19:33 ]

theonetruebix | June 16, 22:32 CET

Ha, yeah, I was just thinking we're going to end up with an entirely invisible thread if we carry on with the speculation. But thinking about who was on the baseship at the time: Baltar, Roslin, Helo...who else? Somehow I just don't think any of them would be satisfying as a final cylon (not that a viper would be particularly! But sort of clever). Roslin and Baltar feel too obvious as choices, and Helo... well that would sort of detract from his inter-species romance with Athena if it turned out they were both cylons.

Is it only Starbuck saying the Five have been to earth? I thought it was the other cylons saying that.

ETA: Very possible, hacksaway, since Three says "I'm so sorry" when she sees the Final Five (and yes, quite right bix there was no viper shape there! So much for my brilliant theory.)

[ edited by catherine on 2008-06-16 19:42 ]

catherine | June 16, 22:38 CET

Helo... well that would sort of detract from his inter-species romance with Athena if it turned out they were both cylons.

Helo is actually who I think it is.

theonetruebix | June 16, 22:41 CET

Should we place our bets now on who we all think is the fifth?

NYPinTA | June 16, 22:47 CET

I think Three is saying that either to Tigh (for what happened during the occupation) or Sam (whom she tried to kill on Caprica).

swanjun | June 16, 22:48 CET

All the hybrid said is that they "come from" the home of the 13th. They could "come from" Earth in the same way that I "come from" Poland just because my ancestors did.

As in, these are earth-built cylons? All this has happened before and will happen again...? My brain is starting to spin and I gotta go to work. I'll be back later to look at your bets and place my own!

Helo, huh? Hmm....

catherine | June 16, 22:50 CET

Was "I'm so sorry" the only thing she said to them? I can't remember now.

So, bix, you think that Three is still holding out information? Wouldn't that make everything else she has said impossible to trust?

What happened to the other cylon models? They just got left out of the truce? I guess they could still pop up later. And blame the humans for destroying "Earth."

hacksaway | June 16, 22:50 CET

As in, these are earth-built cylons?

I guess it's time for my to dig up my theory, add some new stuff, and repost it somewhere. Heh.

theonetruebix | June 16, 22:54 CET

Yes please! (she says, not getting down to work in spite of somber promise to self). I want theories!

catherine | June 16, 22:58 CET

You could report it here: BSG Forum of Sci Fi Straight Dope

NYPinTA | June 16, 22:59 CET

Why report it there when I have a new TV blog? ;)

theonetruebix | June 16, 23:24 CET

"The fifth isn't in the fleet" means:

1) D'Anna doesn't actually know who the fifth is (unlikely)
2) The fifth was on the baystar (Helo, Adama, Roslin, Baltar)
3) The fifth is dead, but may be resurrected (Billy? probably not...though I miss Billy)
4) The fifth is alive and well elsewhere.

I think (2) is the most probable option.

I am not sure what I thought of the last episode, actually--it seemed a bit too rushed, but then it might just be that I need to process it. The ending, at the very least, was absolute killer.

WilliamTheB | June 16, 23:26 CET

Bix, I meant ancient ruins when I said "I thought it looked like ruins too"! I thought that was kind of obivious, I guess not though! LOL! There's a discussion going on over on Whedoesque.org and some were wondering if the ruins were from our current time or does the timeline predate us. I thought they looked ancient, kind of like Kobol's ruins but not modern ruins.

Here's my thoughts on the final cylon. I don't think the final cylon is with either group. I think the last one is who saved/lured Kara to her "death" and sent her back with the knowledge of where earth is and the mystery viper. The final cylon will be someone who previously has died (like Billy, Caine or possibly Ellen). I'm thinking it will be a female because there are only four female models right now. I think the whole it's happened before thing indicates that some of the humans could be decendents of earlier cylons & humans which is why Kara, Laura and Baltar have their visions and were meant to be triggered as certain events occurred.

The remainining unknown cylon has the most knowledge or full knowlege because they have died and have been downloaded into a new body, away from the other cylons and they were meant to die so they could lead the rest.

Of course I'm probably completely off but it's fun trying to figure out what's going to happen.

Firefly Flanatic | June 16, 23:31 CET

WilliamtheB, I was typing when you posted so just wanted to say that Billy has been one of my possibilities from the beginning. But then the actor left the show and his role was kind of replaced by Tory, who ended up being one of the cylons. I still think he could be a one though.

Firefly Flanatic | June 16, 23:34 CET

Fifth Cyclon.

I enjoyed the episode but it did feel rushed. Hello genocidal maniacs who nearly drove us to extinction, let us be best friends now and search for Earth together. I assume the CW is that the 12 colonies came from Earth and have now returned to Earth.

Simon | June 16, 23:40 CET

I just thought - at the time they say "the fifth is not in the fleet" (not in so many words - i need to dig up quotes here!) - Is Adama already waiting for Roslin at the battlescene?

I dont think i want Bill to be the fifth. I always kind of leaned towards it being Roslin - But i think Helo would be an interesting choice, as then we'd have a cylon baby - and also a hybrid with Chief and Callie

cicatrixtwigs | June 16, 23:42 CET

This one didn't feel rushed to me. Not like the one before The Hub did. Rather, it felt to me like Lee just up and decided (as even Baltar argued to Three) that enough was enough and it was time to break the violent cycle between the two races.

I actually think it's possible that belaboring that decision, at this stage, would have felt cumbersome.

theonetruebix | June 16, 23:43 CET

I just can't see the Council or indeed the rest of the fleet being too thrilled about being rushed into a deal with the rebel Cyclons. It would be a step too far for a lot of the survivors.

Simon | June 16, 23:45 CET

Lol Simon! Yes, I could see him being the last Cylon!!

Firefly Flanatic | June 16, 23:48 CET

Why report it there when I have a new TV blog? ;)

You have a TV blog? Why am I even surprised by that?

BTW, my guess is Elosha.

[ edited by NYPinTA on 2008-06-16 21:13 ]

NYPinTA | June 17, 00:10 CET

I've been pondering the Helo idea. If it is him, perhaps that's why they showed that Caprica Six could become preggers. A final fiver is capable of impregnating a Cylon.

swanjun | June 17, 00:20 CET

Simon, would that make him a Cylon with a giant island-shaped TARDIS?

While I overall loved the episode, particularly the music and how well it ratcheted up the tension, the last few minutes did feel a bit rushed. I felt like we didn't see nearly enough of Earth to be able to write it off to the level the characters seemed to. But that's a quibble that will hopefully vanish when the season resumes.

Lady Brick | June 17, 00:24 CET

If it's someone on the basestar, how could she be so sure the other four didn't know who the last was? She would have to be working in cooperation with him/her, and I'm not convinced about that. Helo would be interesting, but I can't really get past this.

For the record, my previous theory was Zarek, but I suppose that's out the airlock now. If it's someone dead, I want it to be Zak, but with my luck it'd probably be Cally. There's just not anyone I really like for the last cylon right now. Especially if it has to be a female.

hacksaway | June 17, 00:25 CET

My favorite part about this episode, besides the being all perfect part?
I have no idea whatsoever about where it's going to go from here. They just took a couple of major events that I figured would happen in the final couple of episodes and threw them out there halfway through the season. I mean, outing the four, and friggin' finding Earth?! With 11 hours (finale got expanded by an hour, link here if you hadn't heard) still to go?

I can't wait to see where they go from here, because suddenly I really can't tell.

Winther | June 17, 00:29 CET

perhaps that's why they showed that Caprica Six could become preggers. A final fiver is capable of impregnating a Cylon.

Yes. And, actually, thanks for the reminder because I meant to include this in the thing I posted earlier and forgot, heh.

theonetruebix | June 17, 00:31 CET

I am so glad that BSG is wrapping up its storylines in a nice, coherent, manner.

And wow, so bleak. I honestly can't remember a television series so depressing. But I really love it.

So, anyone think there are any human survivors on Earth?

MattK | June 17, 00:38 CET

I imagine there are some survivors on Earth. I can't imagine the next ten episodes just having Adama and co. waltzing about the surface and building houses, but, BSG continues to suprise me, so who knows?

I thought it was a damn good mid-season finale, though. It sure was depressing to see what Earth has become, but it was satisfying. Like with Mrs. Espenson, I'm pumped to get back into the BSG world. Too bad the BSG trough is gonna be dry until next year.

On the subject of the fifth Cylon, one of my friends suggested Nicki, and another one of them suggested Zac Adama. I'm leaning towards Zac m'self, although the one friend showed me an up close view of the portrait D'Anna drew of the Final Five, and it appeared that the fifth one was a woman, so... who knows.

Supersymmetrical | June 17, 01:14 CET

Forgive me if this was already covered elsewhere, but is there a reason why people presumed the ruins to be Manhattan, and not some other urban center like Athens? Which coincidentally has a big old ruined temple (AKA The Parthenon) overlooking a modern cityscape. And would tie in nicely with that whole Greek mythology thing the show has going.

But on the subject of the reveal of Earth-That-Is, bravo to the writers for breaking the hearts of viewers the way they did.

BrewBunny | June 17, 01:25 CET

Too bad the BSG trough is gonna be dry until next year.

Aren't the planned webisodes to be between now and then?

theonetruebix | June 17, 01:26 CET

BrewBunny, a lot of it stems from this comparison between the final shot and Manhattan as seen from the end of the Brooklyn Bridge.

theonetruebix | June 17, 01:28 CET

Oh, yeah, there are the webisodes and the possibility of TV movies to fill the gap, yeah. I won't be able to watch the webisodes myself, with my oh-so-pathetic internet connection.

[ edited by Supersymmetrical on 2008-06-16 22:36 ]

Supersymmetrical | June 17, 01:35 CET

Loved the episode. They never fail to surprise me.

The wait 'til the second half will be unbearable.

I like the theory Cain could be the fifth. It's a morbid thought, hence the liking, I suppose.

I have/had a theory, but if "the fifth isn't in the fleet" holds true, maybe not.

Hell, yes, thank you Jane! You are the woman. I knew that last episode was yours a couple minutes in. And yes, I got all weepy.

Earth-that-was...

There's a good discussion going on over at .org.

April | June 17, 02:03 CET

BTW, my guess is Elosha.

Yes I think it could be her as well. I wonder if we'll ever find out who left that note for Adama at the end of the mini-series.

Simon | June 17, 02:07 CET

*double post*

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-16 23:27 ]

theonetruebix | June 17, 02:26 CET

I wonder if we'll ever find out who left that note for Adama at the end of the mini-series.

Originally, it was Baltar. But since they cut that fact from what aired, I gather that's not considered (*cough*) canon. Or did they come back and re-establish this at some point?

theonetruebix | June 17, 02:27 CET

I don't even remember that note.

On the subject of Baltar�how on earth did they make me like him?

swanjun | June 17, 02:53 CET

Regarding Earth, compare the final shot with pictures of Sydney harbour from the perspective of St. Aloyuses(sp?) college- the giant cross on the ground and the bridge are some some indicators that that might be where they are. And can you say OPERA HOUSE? :D

Trek_Girl42 | June 17, 03:08 CET

I thought of a possible obstacle to the 'It's Helo' idea. Wasn't the fact that Hera's blood was half-human the reason that it could be safely given to Laura?

swanjun | June 17, 03:41 CET

Wasn't the fact that Hera's blood was half-human the reason that it could be safely given to Laura?

Or they just assumed it was half-human because there wasn't any reason to think Helo was anything else. ;)

theonetruebix | June 17, 03:52 CET

Well, I add my vote to the final cylon being an as-yet-unseen character. Possibly someone with power, filling a God-like role.

[ edited by MattK on 2008-06-17 00:53 ]

MattK | June 17, 03:53 CET

Thanks, b!x! Trek_Girl42, I like your idea about Sydney Harbor a lot, especially after comparing the BSG shot that b!x linked to the banner on this page.

BrewBunny | June 17, 04:01 CET

BrewBunny Yes, that's the pic I've got as well.

Regarding Helo, another strike would be the fact that his human cells (or whatever it was) in Hera during Athena's pregnancy saved her from the beacon virus that killed the other cylons in season three.

Trek_Girl42 | June 17, 04:15 CET

I just kept waiting for them to pan behind the statue of liberty, and Adama to thrust his fist in the air and yell "noooooo" as ape-men started to appear from behind the rubble.

So did I!

It sure as hell looked like bombed-out New York City.

I think they arrived to find Earth, which is our Earth, but it's not the Earth they're looking for. I think there is another planet in their future. After all, wasn't one of the parts of the prophecy that Roslyn wouldn't live to see Earth? Roslyn was on radioactive Earth.

Maybe there's another Earth, perhaps using the Latin name for Earth (Terra). After all, they worshipped the gods and goddesses of Greek and Roman mythology. Earth can have more than one interpretation.

Maybe BSG will end on a terraformed planet. Someone already mentioned Miranda...

Nebula1400 | June 17, 04:21 CET

All this stuff about Helo's blood is presuming that Final blood is the same as Cylon blood, when it's already pretty clear that the Finals are not like the other Cylons (they age, for example). If (as I argue) the Finals are the direct link back to a prior cycle in human, and Cylon, history, and are the most discernible descendants of that prior cycle's hybrids, they might have enough human components in their biology to account for all of these effects currently being ascribed to Helo and his blood being human. Perhaps the real point is this: They are human ENOUGH for certain purposes.

theonetruebix | June 17, 04:23 CET

Who got Six pregnant?

Nebula1400 | June 17, 04:32 CET

That would Tigh who got Six pregnant. And why won't BSG come back until 2009?

dcubed | June 17, 04:34 CET

The thing that I've been pondering ever since the end of season 3 is why the final cylon didn't respond to the Dylan. At the time, I thought it was Starbuck, 'cause she wasn't there, but now I think that's less likely. If people are thinking that the final cylon is of a different kind then that explains it, but I'm not convinced. My feeling is the last model wasn't in the fleet then, either, so I'm going with the theory that the last cylon is on earth, and that Starbuck met him/her when she disappeared.

Or maybe it is Starbuck after all...

Gil-Martin | June 17, 04:42 CET

Another possibility is that the last one is 7. Maybe it's the last four who heard the music, but whoever is remaining is one of the older models.

swanjun | June 17, 04:48 CET

swanjun: "On the subject of Baltar�how on earth did they make me like him?"

I know lots of people have loathed Baltar throughout the show, but I've always liked him - he's a great character. I mean, not exactly - in general - my role model for moral or ethical behavior, but I've always found him likeable and amusing... and occasionally, I've found myself agreeing with what he's said.

I hope this doesn't make me morally bankrupt? ; >

QuoterGal | June 17, 04:55 CET

Hm, wonder if I'm outgrowing Joss' perceptions, I long since gave up on BSG, I thought it was dark dreary depressing filled with unlikeable characters that I frankly wouldn't mind getting killed.

Pumps | June 17, 05:04 CET

Baltar makes my skin crawl and yet he's always so compelling in his strangely sympathetic odiousness. I got a bit sick of him with Six-in-his-head in her slinky dresses and the plink plink plink music in the first season but I've grown attached to him again since they moved on from that. Was quite afraid that Laura was actually going to let him bleed to death. They've given me some real scares in the last few weeks. The Onion's A.V. Club has a good interview with him up now, in which he suggests a Gaius Baltar Award for Moral Cowardice to be given out each year to people. Ha!

Also thanks bix for linking to your pie spoilers page! Now I'm going to be up all night pondering cycles... *puts on coffee*

catherine | June 17, 05:14 CET

Yeah, I like him better now that he isn't, like, boffing thin air all the time.

Shallowly, his new haircut is v. fetching, as well.

swanjun | June 17, 05:37 CET

That would Tigh who got Six pregnant.

And Tigh is a Cylon, and so is Six. So if he iis indeed the father, the Cylons can reproduce with each other.

I'm thinking the final Cylon was Adama's wife, or someone else who has already died (i.e. Cally, Kat, what's-her-name from the Pegasus, or Roslyn - who will be dead by th end according to the prophecies.

Or it could be Patrick MacNee.

ETA: I also have the same reaction to Baltar, Quoter Gal. I've mostly viewed him as a guy who wants to do the right thing, but he also wants to live. He simply does what most human beings would do in an effort not to die. He's ultimately all about self-preservation, regardless of the ethics involved - and isn't he perfectly representative of humans in general? Haven't Roslyn, Adama, et al done reprehensible things in the interest of human self-preservation?

ETA2: Also, Baltar is hot.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2008-06-17 02:44 ]

Nebula1400 | June 17, 05:38 CET

I say it's Tiger Woods. :D

Great letter by Jane BTW.

crazygolfa | June 17, 05:42 CET

I'm with you, QuoterGal! Baltar is, and always has been, my favourite character on the show.

ETA: Is there a way to turn off the spellcheck on this? I keep thinking I'm dyslexic when I'm actually just British...

[ edited by Gil-Martin on 2008-06-17 02:44 ]

Gil-Martin | June 17, 05:43 CET

And Tigh is a Cylon, and so is Six. So if he iis indeed the father, the Cylons can reproduce with each other.

No, it means the Finals can breed with the Cylons. It's clear already that Finals are not quite the same creatures as the Cylons, despite being considered by the Cylons to be Cylons.

What it really means is that Finals can breed with Cylons and Finals can breed with humans. It's actually part of why I believe Helo is the Fifth (being a Final, and therefore being able to breed with a Cylon, is more believable than the goofy idea that "love" was the missing element.)

theonetruebix | June 17, 05:57 CET

I think I finally got to like Baltar when I started to see him as comic relief (VERY black comedy, but nevertheless... funny). I was blown away by last Friday's episode, it really was staggeringly good.

B!x: I'm impressed with your reasoning about Helo, except for one thing: if that character was going to be the all important Fifth then would they have allowed the actor to take an important role in Dollhouse? It seems like that would give rise to foreseeable scheduling problems.

[ edited by embers on 2008-06-17 03:02 ]

[ edited by embers on 2008-06-17 03:03 ]

embers | June 17, 05:58 CET

I've been considering replaying the final scene from "The Hub" again but I don't want it to wear out its potency. I love this show for giving a squeeful romance to two characters over 50.

swanjun | June 17, 06:00 CET

Aren't the planned webisodes to be between now and then?

The webisodes, the Caprica prequel and the possibility of another miniseries, last I heard.

williamthebloody1880 | June 17, 06:05 CET

No, it means the Finals can breed with the Cylons. It's clear already that Finals are not quite the same creatures as the Cylons, despite being considered by the Cylons to be Cylons.

Same difference. It's what I was saying, but I used fewer words.

Nebula1400 | June 17, 06:35 CET

Yeah, I've always loved Baltar too. I think he is and has always been a symbol of absolute HUMANITY on the show--he's everything about humanity that is self-serving and flawed and maybe a bit lovable. And he has FEELINGS--check out how wounded he is when Kara calls out Lee's name in bed, or his devastation at what happens to the Pegasus Six. He's not a "good guy," but he is effortlessly, completely human. (Which is why I kinda hope he's not a Cylon--he, and in fact humanity, get off the hook too easily if he is.)

WilliamTheB | June 17, 06:40 CET

Same difference. It's what I was saying, but I used fewer words.

No, it's not the same difference. Your version -- "the Cylons can reproduce with each other" -- would suggest that suddenly a Cavill could impregnate a Sharon, which isn't the case. My version is worded the way it is because it's important not to confuse the Cylon skinjobs with the Final Five.

[ edited by theonetruebix on 2008-06-17 03:41 ]

theonetruebix | June 17, 06:40 CET

No, it's not the same difference. Your version -- "the Cylons can reproduce with each other" -- would suggest that suddenly a Cavill could impregnate a Sharon, which isn't the case.

No. It doesn't. If I meant to say that, I would have said that. The four are Cylons, but they're clearly different. They can reproduce with Cylons as well as humans (if Callie was indeed human). They are more or less the missing link between Cylon skin jobs and humans.

So tell me again what I'm saying that I'm not. ;)

Nebula1400 | June 17, 06:53 CET

What you said, whether it's what you meant or not, was "the Cylons can reproduce with each other". Whether you meant it to be or not that statement is all-encompassing. It doesn't say "some Cylons can reproduce with each other" or "one type of Cylon can reproduce with other types".

I'll accept that you didn't mean it all-encompassingly, but your phrasing was, nonetheless, all-encompassing, and I was just trying to make sure people were being specific (because, you know, with a show like this, a lack of specificity can make things confusing very quickly, heh).

theonetruebix | June 17, 06:57 CET

I'm remembering something that Jane wrote on her blog a while back -- about giving with one hand and taking away with the same hand, giving the audience something they've craved for a long time -- and, at the same time, having it turn out horrible.

Seems like Ron Moore listened to her.

ManEnoughToAdmitIt | June 17, 07:08 CET

embers, BSG wraps up their filming next week, so Tahmoh Penikett wouldn't have to do much juggling with Dollhouse. And since he was seen in town on Friday night, I believe he'll be there at the end.

Regarding the ruins, check out this story. Our November windstorm made the ruins look even more ruined - or did they??

samatwitch | June 17, 07:24 CET

I had to ask my younger sister why everyone looked upset when they landed on Earth. She said "because they did not expect it to be a barren holocaust wasteland" I responded "Really? Why not? If it was verdant and lush, they would have stayed on Earth"

I was so surprised that people were shocked. Mayhaps I have been around Mr. Whedon too long... ;) (Love= Death, something you think is good never is. ) But the neat thing is now that I know that when I re watch it I can be in that head space.

I don't think the Final Cylon is Helo, too much noise was made about Hera The Hybrid. But I DO like the idea that it may have been someone on the basestar. I think it is one of the "survivors" on Earth (if that indeed was Earth) whom we have never seen.

I am with you Winther What in the world, please forgive the unintentional pun but now it made me laugh so I have to keep it in there, are we going to see now??

All I know is it is going to be a bowl of Awesome covered in Awesome pudding. :)

Tarheelfan | June 17, 07:36 CET

Wouldn't having only 4-5 individuals able to breed with cylons make it more difficult to create a new hybrid race, assuming that's what the ultimate goal is? It seems kind of like a step backward. Why would the humans accept the cylons if it's only these final five that allow progression? At least before, there was the possibility that there could be more cross-procreation.

hacksaway | June 17, 07:45 CET

swanjun that scene is just as amazing with every viewing, easily one of the most powerful/moving/satisfying scenes I have ever seen on screen. An amazing piece of work by two brilliant actors that should be Emmy frontrunners.

Trek_Girl42 | June 17, 08:07 CET

Re Earth vs. not-Earth: just before the jump, one of the people at the controls said, "The constellations look right," or words to that effect. I don't think any earthlike planets orbiting G-stars exist near enough to Earth for the constellations to line up as they do on Earth. So either it's Earth, or the Cylons have altered the colonials' star maps.

Re what happened to the planet: while the rest of you were looking at the skyline, I was focusing on the dead vegetation. Whatever happened, happened very recently. Ten years of wind and rainfall would have destroyed and scattered all those dead vines clinging to the rubble. Which raises at least three questions: who caused this devastation, why, and is it local or general?

janef | June 17, 08:32 CET

"The beauty of this episode is in it's urgency, in the tumbling breathless slide that lands us on that grim gray unfamiliar beach."

Gods, I would kill to be able to write like that, and that's just an interview. ;-)

BTW, my guess is Elosha.

I've been thinking about this ever since Hub. It wouldn't be entirely unsatisfying, given a proper arc to lead us to it. I really don't think it's Helo. Not because of Hera, just a gut feeling.

I love this show so much, and I have nobody to talk about it with except my husband, who is tired of me yapping questions he can't answer at him and just grumbles about 2009.
catherine | June 16, 18:33 CET

catherine, you should really come over and join the discussion on .org, I don't think it's going to end any time soon, just because we've see the last regular ep until next year.

Shey | June 17, 14:01 CET

bix!, you hang on words to much. Life is too short for that!

Nebula1400 | June 17, 15:03 CET

My main reason for thinking it's Elosha is her puppet master like position with Roslyn. She was just repsonsible for a few too many decisions that fullfilled prophecy.

And speaking of prophecy. With regards to the bit about Roslyn not making it to Earth. That was before Lee put in a monkey in the works with his surprising alliance with the cylons. If all of whatever was happening had happened before in a certain way, I'm sure it ended as Roslyn commanded Adama to end it by blowing up the base ship even though she was still on it. Had Lee carried that particular line of events forward, she'd be dead and the remaining fleet could still have jumped to Earth and the prophecy would be fullfilled. IMO, he broke the cycle. Go Lee.

NYPinTA | June 17, 18:08 CET

Ah, Nebula, life is too short not to "hang on" words, IMO. We are lucky that some people, JE, for one, are so very good with them, and choose them with such skill and care.

Life is also to short to worry about having the last word.

toast | June 17, 18:44 CET

Gots to agree with toast, here on the black (as the kids call it) what else have we got, besides our words? I'll go with life being too short, but I'm a big fan of words and like to give them high priority.

And thanks shey I'll come and check out the mysterious .org! Bless the internets, for sparing my husband the full brunt of my obsessive nature.

catherine | June 17, 18:55 CET

I understood what you meant, Nebula. Much ado about nothing.

Succatash | June 17, 23:15 CET

I understood what you meant, Nebula. Much ado about nothing.

Yep!

Words are great. Playing with them is fun. Mincing them is masculine.

Life is also to short to worry about having the last word.

I promise not to have the last word then! ;-)

Taking off before I get other people's feet in my mouth. :D

Nebula1400 | June 18, 03:03 CET

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.

« Older A Joss Whedon video game? | May 2008 comics sales charts are r... Newer »

June 16 2008