Less overlooked would be better going forward, I say :) But I get why he wouldn't be suitable for casual sex.

KingofCretins | March 25, 00:39 CET

Well today is day for geek-gasming goodness. Not only did I get to finally join the Whedonesque crew here, BUT I got to hear all about the wonderful projects coming up in my fav comics!!! And snagging the first comment on my first day posting. ~le sigh~ This just might be the best day ever.

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 00:41 CET

Great interview.

Scott Allie made a very good point about people who claim not to be homophobic, then disprove themselves by saying that one gay woman per fictional series is enough. As though it would cancel out gravity or some such.

What are we going to do with all these extra gay women in fiction?

If only there was some kind of camp...or asylum.

Uh-huh.

The Londinium Sun | March 25, 00:49 CET

Buffy has thought about bedding Xander. Well, at least her subconscious did... before she dreamed his head to pop off.

quantumac | March 25, 00:49 CET

Is that something Buffy's worried about? That she might hurt Xander if they had sex? Most of her relationships were super-human (Angel, Spike, Riley pre-Season 5, Satsu). True, she did have a one-night stand with Parker, but as Spike asks, maybe she was too rough on him. Riley (Season 5) was treated like a care-package until he left. If Buffy's subconscious is worried that Xander's head will pop off if they kiss... well, maybe there's something to that.

korkster | March 25, 00:55 CET

I'm right there with you The Londinium Sun, what the heck are they going to do about shows like Queer as Folk, should they only be allowed 1 heterosexual couple or be limited to telling one homosexual couples story at a time.

Also it should be noted that one homosexual liason does not a Lesbian make.

And korkster, I'm afraid I agree with that. Buffy is afraid of hurting Xander or even worse losing him. He is kind of her compass, he's the first one to have her back when the others are like "Thats crazy talk" and he is also the first person to call her on her bullshit.

Also sorry about the double posting badness...I hates learning me a new forum...

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 01:08 CET

talking about xander as the only man-like alternative for buffy at this point which is really kind of ... you know, there is one thing i have to beg for
(and i really hope that joss will read this):

can we please get at last one cool guy-charakter for the season???

or am i the only one who misses some xy-chromosomes?!

mmm cookies | March 25, 01:12 CET

I was just about to start rolling my eyes again at Scott Allie's second near-admission that Buffy/Satsu is Season 6 Buffy/Spike v2.0, and that Buffy really *has* learned nothing from that experience, but this gives me hope:

Scott Allie: My favorite reactions were from people who were just mad at her for once again taking lightly the emotions of another person -- regardless of that person's gender. I think those people understand her the best.

I sent him an e-mail just like that, so maybe this matter will be treated as delicately as I was hoping, after all...

Enisy | March 25, 01:13 CET

Thanks GothicJossMinion . To others, for proof of this think back to Season 7 when Buffy tries to send Xander and Dawn away. Xander says that he still has fight left in him, but Buffy's afraid to lose him, he's her "strength", but, personally, I believe this is figurative strength and not literal. If she was sure he could take care of himself (and Dawn too), they wouldn't have been sent away. Yeah, I know Buffy states that she needs Xander to protect Dawn, but we can all see through that one. :)

BTW, this is a very addictive forum! I could barely keep away 5 minutes when I was a lurker. Now, I'm just... I really need to get some work done people.

korkster | March 25, 01:16 CET

I think the issue most people find with having Buffy hook up with a girl is not that there would be two lesbian characters in the same comic - it's that people see it as out of character for Buffy - a formerly very straight character. The thing is - when Willow first got together with Tara - she was thought to be straight as well. And it took a lot of people a while to get used to the idea. I don't necessarily think that's homophobia - just a slow reaction to change.

As for Buffy and Xander - I honestly don't think Buffy is, or will ever be, interested in sleeping with Xander. And it's not because she might hurt him or lose him - it's because she's not attracted to Xander - for whatever reason. Buffy has never been someone who thought things out rationally with regard to her lovelife. She's pretty much the poster child for sleeping with the absolute wrong person at the absolute wrong time. If she was attracted to Xander she would have slept with him a long time ago.

missmuffet | March 25, 01:29 CET

Enisy, I didn't send him an email at all, but I've been voicing the same thoughts -- Buffy shouldn't be speculating on people who are in love with her, particularly ones that work for her, whether the name is Satsu or Satchel. Or Satchmo.

I'm wondering if the "long-overlooked" comment had to do with people picking up on my joke that it sounded like, from Allie's last interview, they really had said that Buffy wouldn't sleep with Xander if he was the last guy on earth. I'm not giving up completely, though -- just that most of my Xander energy is spent on him not turning evil, getting killed off, or otherwise buttmonkeyed.

KingofCretins | March 25, 01:56 CET

"I think the issue most people find with having Buffy hook up with a girl is not that there would be two lesbian characters in the same comic - it's that people see it as out of character for Buffy - a formerly very straight character. The thing is - when Willow first got together with Tara - she was thought to be straight as well. And it took a lot of people a while to get used to the idea. I don't necessarily think that's homophobia - just a slow reaction to change."

Its not that we're saying the general group who is having trouble adjusting is all homophobic, just that the ones using the argument that "Joss has already done this story line with Willow, why go there again" is not really a valid argument. What IF Joss is using this as not a gimmick or revisiting old storylines but as a way not only for growth of character for the Buffster but as a way of validating Willow's lifestyle choice even further. If Buffy has this tryst and then decides that its not something she wants to pursue returns to having liasons with men it shows that Willow didn't just have relations with a woman and then assume that she was a lesbian, she well and truly discovered through her love for Tara that she preferred women. Then all the folks that say that it is impossible for Willow to have been straight and then "gone gay" will be proven wrong, that sometimes yes people are hardwired one way and it really and truly does feel right to them but sometimes things happen that changes them. And sometimes people are just people and they hook up and they comfort each other it doesn't have to mean a lifestyle change. Maybe its experimenting maybe its a shift in her sexual preference but either way it is very much within Buffy's character to do this. And anyone who says that its just revisiting old storylines is full of bollocks.


"As for Buffy and Xander - I honestly don't think Buffy is, or will ever be, interested in sleeping with Xander. And it's not because she might hurt him or lose him - it's because she's not attracted to Xander - for whatever reason. Buffy has never been someone who thought things out rationally with regard to her lovelife. She's pretty much the poster child for sleeping with the absolute wrong person at the absolute wrong time. If she was attracted to Xander she would have slept with him a long time ago."

I honestly see Buffy as deeply caring for Xander so that, yes she may not be hugely jonesing for the Harris love BUT that a tryst with him has crossed her mind if only fleetingly. But she cares for him too much to do that to him. With other people that she doesn't know near as well, she allowed herself to fall quickly for them and without much thought. Because that wouldn't change the dynamic of her inner circle very much if at all. She could safely make reckless love life decisions and not destroy her entire world as she knew it. But were she to date within that circle and things go bad or she lost one of them it would forever change her, weakening her forever.

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 02:06 CET

I'm not sure I see the value of discussing reactions second-hand, especially when filtered through an admittedly involved and busy intermediary. Haven't we rehashed people's reactions to Buffy/Satsu directly and first-hand here enough already? If not, not sure Scott's offhanded comments summarizing a series of strong emotional reactions is going to be a fair treatment of the topic.

jclemens | March 25, 02:12 CET

GothicJossMinion, did you have to go all deep and somber and ruin my hot chocolate?

And, that raises the question though, of whether her decision with Satsu has affected her inner circle. I haven't read #12 yet (won't get here until end of March), but from what I gather, Willow's reaction to the Butsu thing was not pleasant and happy. And, they're already on the fritz with this whole betrayal thing.

I wish the world would learn that decisions you make for yourself DO affect others however indirectly you want to think about it. We should wear ribbons and spread this message through walk-a-thons. Who's with me?

korkster | March 25, 02:16 CET

I'm tired of the assumption that anyone who hated it must be homophobic. I wouldn't have cared if Buffy slept with Willow - if it had been a well done story thread. Buffy/Satsu was pretty much out of nowhere and done for shock value. Given the content of Joss's subsequent interviews, it's clear he did it to make a political statement (about the fludity of sexuality; that we all 'experiment'). That's my problem, the problem a lot of people seem to have. The fact that so many people here have had to rationalize and explain Buffy's actions based on her past shows that there's something there that needs rationalization; ergo, the storyline lacked clarity and justification. That is a fault.

Even if it is the case that she necessarily and compulsively makes bad decisions about relationships (which is highly debatable), Joss has fallen back on that aspect of her personality like a crutch - quite awkwardly - just to make his political point. The development's poor quality is fully evidenced by the fact that some fans have felt the need to explain a stark, obvious and wholly uncomplicated plot twist to the rest of us. The only other kind of story development that would need this kind of rigorous explaining is a complicated or subtle one. But we're not dealing with a story as labyrinthe or relativist as BSG, for example.

[ edited by Ryan-RB on 2008-03-24 23:28 ]

Ryan-RB | March 25, 02:24 CET

korkster I beg for forgiveness, I would never knowingly ruin anyone's chocolatety goodness...well the prospective fall-out from the Butsu (sounds like a knife set) tryst (my fav word of the day) has not been fully felt. Without spoiling issue #12 too much for you, the DH folks and Drew undercut what is really a very important point in Buffy's life with humor. And I think the Willow reactions is more of she's afraid Buffy is shaking her bag so to speak. Kind of like the Angel reaction to Spike having a soul.

I'm all for Relationship Fall-Out walks and pamphlets, what color ribbon though?

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 02:25 CET

Is there are reason why Buffy ALWAYS has to be with somebody? I was enjoying her single-hood in Season 7, and Xander's little pep talk after Riley left in Season 5 pretty much summed up how I've always felt. Her epiphany that she should learn to be comfortable being with herself first is a valuable lesson.
Is anyone at all open to the possibility that while this wasn't exactly the Buffy & Spike boinkapalooza of Season 6, it may not actually be true love. I'm open to Buffy going gay, but if it's not in the cards, then it isn't.

Also, let's not forget that there were two very attractive women in bed with each other (leaving Mr. Gordo II on the floor, unless by some stroke of dumb luck, Buffy brought him along with her on the bus as a security blankie). While I've heard lots of "Buffy must have swung it" arguments, I think the case can also be made that (if we have to completely derogatory towards the decisions that these characters make) that Satsu could have taken advantage of Buffy's shaken moral core. They shared a tender moment at the end of #11, and she knows about Buffy's romantic history. It's a complex situation, and the constant bickering for a true black-or-white situation just flies in the face of everything that the show and character has ever stood for.
Just some thoughts.

wenxina | March 25, 02:33 CET

Given the content of Joss's subsequent interviews, it's clear he did it to make a political statement

Actually, his interviews pretty much demonstrate precisely the opposite. But people see what they want to see in order to support their own position.

theonetruebix | March 25, 02:42 CET

i still wonder what is so important about that?! i mean let's count buffys lovers:
a vampire with soul, parker the college-i-understand-women-stupid-guy, a chemical polluted soldier, a vampire without soul, a vampire with soul (again) and now a women. (did i miss someone?!)

first of all buffy never had a hand for traditional relationships and on second thought satsu is at least human so it's a step forward. yay for her!

and if we could handle stupid-guy-parker why do we have so much problems with satsu?

mmm cookies | March 25, 02:45 CET

Ryan-RB I think that missmuffet hit on the head that alot of the folks who disliked the turn of events were upset that it was out of character or a political statement or gimmick. But if you guys haven't figured it out by now, Joss's priority is the story and the entire premise of the show is in essence is a political statement. And in your opinion Joss came off this story twist awkardly, in others opinion he did it very well. This wasn't spur of the moment, what can we do to get sales up or keep them up, this was talked about over a year ago before the first comic came out. Joss has never let me down yet and I doubt he plans to start now. I've heard many arguments that he is only out to make a political statement or that he's jumped the shark this time. I think he's a very talented, daring, and above all very intune with what the story needs, not necessarily with what the fans want, or the studios want but what the story needs. And if you feel so adamantly that Joss is just putting tripe out there to further his own agenda and are not the least bit entertained by it then why do you read the comic or watched the show? I'm not saying he's perfect I do follow his advice in "Trust the Tale, not the teller." I trust this story and the folks who present for me.

korkster I beg for forgiveness, I would never knowingly ruin anyone's chocolatety goodness...well the prospective fall-out from the Butsu (sounds like a knife set) tryst (my fav word of the day) has not been fully felt. Without spoiling issue #12 too much for you, the DH folks and Drew undercut what is really a very important point in Buffy's life with humor. And I think the Willow reactions is more of she's afraid Buffy is shaking her bag so to speak. Kind of like the Angel reaction to Spike having a soul.

I'm all for Relationship Fall-Out walks and pamphlets, what color ribbon though?

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 02:47 CET

Actually, his interviews pretty much demonstrate precisely the opposite. But people see what they want to see in order to support their own position.

And your response, evidence so lacking in it, has proven that you are every bit as susceptible to that as anyone. I have given evidence for my position. Where is yours?

[ edited by Ryan-RB on 2008-03-24 23:55 ]

Ryan-RB | March 25, 02:50 CET

blushes deeply also If anyone could point the newest memember of this esteemed community to someone where other than the How To tip page which devoid of any pointers on How To Edit a post after posting it. I would be forever grateful. ~sigh~

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 03:00 CET

As it says on the membership form

Simon | March 25, 03:09 CET

Simon Thanks... blushes again I skimmed the form I was so gorram excited that I didn't miss the membership window AGAIN that it was all I could do not to register as gibberish that my fingers found.

GothicJossMinion | March 25, 03:14 CET

Don't worry, GothicJossMinion, I had to go look up tryst. I'm still not quite sure how you were able to post twice like that... weird.

Anyway, sorry I can't answer your question. My first day too. Guess we're not in the little leagues anymore. :)

korkster | March 25, 03:16 CET

Ah, I only saw the post front-page part, not the edit part. Are other people able to edit our mistakes? I think I've seen that before...

korkster | March 25, 03:19 CET

Just the staff that's all.

Simon | March 25, 03:25 CET

And your response, evidence so lacking in it, has proven that you are every bit as susceptible to that as anyone. I have given evidence for my position. Where is yours?

The fact that "(about the fludity [sic] of sexuality; that we all 'experiment')" is not a political statement.

theonetruebix | March 25, 03:30 CET

Ryan-RB said:
"Buffy/Satsu was pretty much out of nowhere and done for shock value."

Satsu is a new character introduced in Season 8. Tara was introduced in Season 4. It was a giveaway in Joss' opening arc that Satsu likes (loves?) Buffy. In Tara's first episode, she and Willow shared a connection/moment when they combined their powers, and some fans assumed more than others, but even still during Tara-featuring episodes soon after that, it became very apparent what was going on. 11 issues into Season 8 Buffy and Satsu have a feature issue in which there is build-up to what happens in Issue #12 (or an end to it, if it had been squashed and heard of no more, perhaps with Satsu dying a heroic death some time soon in true cliched fashion). Issue #12 they've slept together. For those still in the dark and just to solidify what Willow had going on with Tara, we got "New Moon Rising" near the end of Season 4 (though it also brought a nice close to Willow/Oz, and did so without disrespecting what they had--I think that ep doesn't get enough credit as one of the most mature hours of TV about relationships ever--though with fantasy wolfy complication, of course).

I'm just...I'm not seeing a huge difference, aside from how the love interests/lust interests are maybe treated by our main characters. Satsu/Buffy wasn't "pretty much out of nowhere". It just wasn't. It's right there on the page, suggested to us as a possibility from early on, as much as most of us didn't give a shit back during the opening arc 'cause, to be honest, did many of us really care all that much about yet another Potential at the time ?

The one area where I will concede that Issue #12 lowered itself to shock value was in the advertising, but that likely wasn't Joss' fault. Why did they have to do that ? I may be remembering wrong, but I think even in the goddamn Dark Horse solicitation/ad they were hyping it up as a major "event". That's awful and makes the story sound like the same sort of stunt they've pulled with flimsy girl-on-girl kisses on some lesser TV dramas. Nevermind all the reviewers saying to buy loads of multiple copies of the issue...

And for all we know Willow's still bi, by the way (this bit isn't specifically directed at anyone, just a reaction to opinions I keep seeing). I don't believe Joss himself has ever stated that she is beyond a shadow of a doubt all about women forever until the end of her life, but I see folks often refer to her as a lesbian (Jane Espenson might've said she felt Willow is gay, I can't remember. Pretty sure at least one of the writers did). I guess it's open to interpretation, but in Willow's case I assume bi or undetermined until proven otherwise, though I suppose it's not important to ever determine within the text.

"Given the content of Joss's subsequent interviews, it's clear he did it to make a political statement (about the fludity of sexuality; that we all 'experiment')."

Doubtful he would attempt to make that statement unless he was severely ignorant, which we know him to not be. Not everyone experiments. A whole lot of the population still only dates four to six people in their youth, the opposite sex. Some even still marry their highschool or college sweethearts (nothing wrong with any of this).

Anyway, if anything Firefly/Serenity is more the place he's made his political statements (at least, more obviously) and when they come about on Buffy or Angel they've had more to do with how they provoke the characters and what they reveal about their personalities.

Just to give some context Ryan-RB, I'm not a Joss apologist, he's not so golden that "he has yet to disappoint me" (and what is Scott Allie smoking, "a TV show that went out on top"--Buffy had a quality finish in "Chosen" and some standouts like "Selfless", "Conversations with Dead People", a promising opening string of episodes and intrigue and a couple other decent eps, but Season 7 isn't what I'd call going out on top. The opening of Season 8 had some issues too, but it quickly improved itself and is so far much more interesting and of an even quality than Season 7).

[ edited by Kris on 2008-03-25 04:08 ]

[ edited by Kris on 2008-03-25 04:11 ]

Kris | March 25, 07:07 CET

mmm cookies: could you punctuate/capitalize your posts as per site rules, please? Thanks. And welcome new members.

Honestly, I haven't the strength to get into this S8:12 debate again. (Except to say that Kris, as always, speaks beaucoup de sense, although I'll not get into Willow: gay or bi? or the absolute merits of S7, which, on rewatching, continues to throw up surprises). Just can't wait for the next ish, which would be the mark of a good comic book.

SoddingNancyTribe | March 25, 07:13 CET

I don't appreciate statements suggesting that anyone who didn't love the Buffy/Satsu hook up, must be homophobic, close minded and or just an idiot. Which is generally suggested on many forums. I find it hard to believe that many Buffy fans are close minded.

I don't like a few things (not many) that occur in the Buffyverse, but that's the wacky thing about having free will and our own brain. ;)

Anyway doesn't bother me any more then the shock of Buffy suddenly stealing.

alexa | March 25, 07:18 CET

Actually Kris, I appreciate the sense of your argument despite my disagreement. I don't think this is an issue that can be objectively decided, having seen so much debate on it. But, and I have said this before, you're assuming I didn't have similar problems with the Willow/Tara thing. My concerns weren't as big with that development (it was easier to accept as part of the tapestry of the 'semi-typical college experience' thread), but it was only by the end of S4, when the relationship between them had developed more naturally, that I accepted and started liking it.

I find it hard to believe that many Buffy fans are close minded.

There will be at least some in every fan group. Buffy is not a relativist show that merely presents moral conflicts, rather it has a clear opinion on them. When you get people together to do nothing but praise its virtues, you're going to get an environment where a few of them will take it to an extreme.

[ edited by Ryan-RB on 2008-03-25 05:28 ]

Ryan-RB | March 25, 08:26 CET

I would reword that to say:
Owen (high school guy)
Angel (vampire, super-being)
Parker (college guy)
Riley (chemically enhanced soldier, super-being)
Spike (vampire, super-being)
Satsu (Slayer, super-being)

Each one of these has either died or almost died. She broke up with Owen because he almost got killed. Parker dumped her first, maybe subconsciously she knew that he would before something inevitably would've happened to him. She had daydreams of rescuing him and him realizing how awesome she is. But then when she actually did...it wasn't...all that.

Along the lines of Spike's "she needs a little monster in her man", it may be more she needs a little superpower in whoever she gets involved with because she's the Slayer, and catastrophe follows her.

Satsu is a Slayer, thus knows what it's like to be a Slayer. She's probably not going to think anything's wrong with Buffy for being a Slayer.

Satsu was presumably the only person in the vicinity who could wake Buffy (save her), for no other reason than Satsu was in love with her. Satsu proved her love without losing her soul, without going to battle for her, without getting tortured, without sacrifice.

Satsu is, in Buffy's esteemed opinion, her best fighter. And Buffy brought her on that mission because she was the best person for the job. Satsu fought along side Buffy and got the crap kicked out of her, not because she's in love with Buffy, but because she's a Slayer and would have to regardless. Then Satsu healed with her own Slayer healing power. She didn't die.

"You didn't kill her." I like the way the dialogue box hangs in that panel. It's part of Twilight's dialogue, but could it also be what Buffy's thinking of Satsu? Satsu's in love with her, and she didn't kill her...or get her killed.

So, in Buffy's list of why and why not the only thing that seems to be left on the "Why not" is Buffy's not gay and thus isn't in love with Satsu. So what if Buffy overlooks that for just a night? The result is...apparently really good sex for Buffy. For Satsu...a broken heart? She'll heal. Presumably. Most people do anyway. Still, not as bad as losing one's soul and/or going all homicidal maniac.



And to the myriad of people be called homophobic just for having an opinion (here or elsewhere): Yeah. Sucks to be stereotyped and suffer attacks that stem from prejudice. Just hang in there, you. Someday we'll all be free and equal and stuff. I'm not sure if we're all entitled to live without suffering from prejudice, or if no one is.

GrrrlRomeo | March 25, 13:28 CET

SoddingNancyTribe: Sorry for that! Quite a habit of me not to capitalize anything.

Is Owen authorized to be on the Buffy-lover-list?! That was over before it even got serious.

mmm cookies | March 25, 16:04 CET

Owen is when Buffy realized that anyone she got involved with would be in danger. Storywise, major foreshadow.

GrrrlRomeo | March 25, 16:38 CET

Owen was a doof. Christopher Wiehl looked like he was about 47 in that episode, too :)

Should we include RJ? It was spell-induced but I personally figure, with how much time it took Dawn to find Xander and Xander to find them, and the way the shooting script describes it, and the scene itself, that their interlocked parts... interlocked. Plus she calls him her lover.

I really, really wish they had done a subplot in a later episode, maybe around "First Date", with RJ following Buffy around like a lost puppy :)

KingofCretins | March 25, 16:44 CET

OOO! OOO! RJ IS TWILIGHT!

(crickets)

Sorry. I'll just go sit quietly over here, now...

Rowan Hawthorn | March 25, 17:09 CET

That would be hysterical -- his revenge for being rejected so horribly!

I wanted to revisit that character, though, because he was not a bad guy. He had no clue what that jacket was doing, thought he was just that cool. And yet everybody undoubtedly lost interest in him for no apparent (to him) reason, including Buffy who he probably thought he had a "connection" with. Poor RJ.

KingofCretins | March 25, 17:14 CET

Well, look at his brother. There's RJ in a couple of years.

Rowan Hawthorn | March 25, 17:22 CET

Oh, it's so obvious people, do you really need it spelling out ? Twilight is totally Scott Hope ! It's the old story of boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy turns out to be gay, boy is nonetheless willing to destroy all magic in the world for revenge.

In anyone else's hands it'd be a cliché.

Saje | March 25, 17:32 CET

Y'know, I don't think so. RJ is going to go to Colorado State where he'll be a midling benchwarmer for the Rams football team while concentrating on an English degree after rediscovering his love of poetry.

Scott Hope is waaaaaaaaay too short to be a stormtrooper.

KingofCretins | March 25, 17:33 CET

One word - "lifts". The evidence is right there for all to see: Scott Hope probably scratches his neck in one of his appearances on the show, the whole "itch" tease in issue 11 is probably a very clear nod to that. And it barely needs saying that 'Twilight' is an anagram of 'Light Wit' which may well be one of the things that attracted Buffy to Scott in the first place.

In some ways I wish Joss hadn't made it quite so obvious, maybe kept us guessing a while longer, y'know ?

Saje | March 25, 17:52 CET

I must have lost more sleep last night than I thought - I actually caught myself trying to remember if we saw anything like that... *headdesk*

Rowan Hawthorn | March 25, 18:12 CET

Lack of sleep lack of schmeep, it's the undeniable power of my cast iron logic that did it.

Saje | March 25, 18:17 CET

Actually, I think he did -- he did something demonstrative when he made that joke about something making him blotch. I dunno.

KingofCretins | March 25, 18:19 CET

I had cast iron logic once, but it rusted...

And now I'm going to have to watch that episode again, or this'll keep me awake all night tonight, too.

Rowan Hawthorn | March 25, 18:26 CET

Saje, be sure to season that logic thoroughly before reasoning, so that cognitive dissonance and logic flaws do not stick to your arguments.

Sunfire | March 25, 18:32 CET

I like to lightly sprinkle logical flaws on the argument cake, just adds a certain pizzazz.

(imagine if it actually ended up being him ? I don't think there's a word for how much i'd laugh ;)

Saje | March 25, 19:12 CET

Oh, Saje! You beat me to it! Curse the roatating earth! >)

It's totally Scott Hope.

Now, to update our Buffy "boyfriends are dangerous" list:

Owen- obsessed with Emily Dickinson; loves danger
Tom- frat boy who tries to sacrifice girls to reptile boy; danger to girls for bank account
Angel- cursed bad boy who goes souless= danger
Scott Hope- loves danger... enough to dump a girl before prom & then pick up another date
Angel- gets soul back; moves to LA
Parker- seduces girls into sleeping with him; dangerous enough to try this with Willow who's mad enough to turn him into a toad
Riley1- super-charged soldier boy who kills demons= danger
Riley2- normal guy who lets tramp vamps suck out his blood= danger
Spike- non-soul dude who gives s&m and almost rapes her... dangerously
**RJ**- wears jacket that charms women into doing anything for him; Buffy almost kills Principal Wood for him... in a dangerous fashion
Souled Spike with Chip- being controlled by the First; leads Buffy into a basement with *tons* of vamps to kill her= danger
Souled Spike without Chip- sacrifices himself for the greater good, destroys Sunnydale, and almost takes Buffy with him= danger

Still haven't received #12 yet, so someone will have to fill in Satsu's situation.

See why Xander can't fit into this mix? True, he had a shot when he was possessed by a hyena, but he didn't eat the pig, so no love there. And, he ALMOST had Buffy when he charmed the school, but he turned her down. You just can't come back from that. :(

korkster | March 25, 19:51 CET

Xander- dumped a former and then again vengeance-demon on a wedding with lots of other demons. = if that's not dangerous

But think it this way: Xander had Cordelia, Faith, Willow and Anya. With Buffy he would almost complete his Scoobygang-adventure because what would be next...(i always knew it)...Andrew!!!

mmm cookies | March 25, 20:18 CET

Let's not forget that Xander is a demon magnet. That qualifies as dangerous in my book, because he is in danger a lot.

What were we talking about, again?

Sunfire | March 25, 20:40 CET

Now let's look at Xander's loves or potential loves.

Ms. French - Hot teacher who turns out to be praying mantis lady. She tried to bit his head off = Dangerous.
Ampata - Inca Mummy Girl who could only live by sucking the life force out of people, tried to kill Willow. = Dangerous.
Cordelia - Nice normal girl, who eventually turns into a half-demon, then gets possessed by a higher being and tries to take over the world. = Dangerous.
The Whole Female Population of Sunnydale - Every girls falls in love with Xander due to a spell, most of them become homicidal in their love. = Dangerous.
Willow - Best friend, becomes a very powerful wicca, loses it after lover is killed and nearly destroys the world. = Oh yeah, she's dangerous.
Faith - Slayer, doesn't appear on the cover of Sanity Fair, tried to kill Xander during sex, turns evil, tries to kill everyone, wears leather. = Dangerous
Anya - Former Vengeance Demon, apparent Republican (joking), Xander leaves her at the altar, becomes Vengeance Demon again, and has friends who are also demons. = Stupidly dangerous.
Nancy - Girl who has obsessive ex-boyfriend, who then is turned in a grabboid, but still stalks said girl. = Dangerous.
Lissa - Cat demon who tried to sacrifice Xander to bring forth an ubervamp. = Dangerous.
Dracula - The vampire who has thrall and can change appearance. = Dangerous.
Renee - Slayer, likes Xander, so she must be drawn to dangerous. = Dangerous.

Buffy - Slayer, drawn to dangerous people, tendency to fight in apocalypses (or is it apocalypii) and is friends with Xander. = Dangerous.

Is there anyone I missed?

[ edited by crazygolfa on 2008-03-25 18:18 ]

crazygolfa | March 25, 21:06 CET

If you look at these comparisons, crazygolfa, you'll see that you make my point:

Buffy is the right woman for Xander, but Xander is NOT the right man for Buffy....currently

Buffy likes men that cause trouble and bring her torment & pain; Xander's not like that with his women.
Xander likes women that cause trouble and bring him torment & pain; Buffy's perfect for him but she's... not interested?

Kind of like a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is NOT a square.

Get what I mean? ;)

korkster | March 25, 21:22 CET

But wait, you could say that Xander has brought torment and pain to some of his women. With Willow, it was not returning her affections for the longest time, which caused her torment and pain for the first three seasons. It devastated her that he dated Cordelia and slept with Faith.

With Cordelia, who was in love with Xander only to find that Xander and Willow was having illicit smoochies, which cause Cordelia torment and pain.

Then there is Anya, they were about to be married, and he jilted. It gave her so much torment and pain, that she became a vengeance demon. Xander has brought the torment and pain for his women before.

crazygolfa | March 25, 21:31 CET

I'm really bothered by all of the fans who say they are going to stop reading because Buffy had a lesbian experience or because Buffy stole some gems or any other number of various, controversial plot points the Buffyverse has swung our way our way over the years (Buffy sleeping with Spike, the death of Tara, etc). Isn't anyone just satisfied to react to the events--negatively or positively--and let the story sweep you away? The point of art isn't to give you exactly what you want and I think most of us can agree that Buffy is darned good art.

Buffy the Slayer Layer | March 25, 21:31 CET

crazygolfa, true, Xander can bring pain. But that's in an emotional sense... causing the women to do things to themselves (like Anya turning back into a vengeance demon).

Buffy's more interested in physical pain. Angel, Spike, Riley (her biggies, if you will), bring physical pain and death to the environment, either giving it a positive effect or a negative one (depends on whether they're evil at the time or not). Xander is not up to par in that scenario. Satsu, however, is. Buffy feels a need (or she did in S1-7) to protect Xander rather than recruit him in the fight. See "The Zeppo", or S7 when she sends Xander away with Dawn for reference (plus, all the episodes in between).

This can also be seen best with Riley, since we have a direct comparison of super-powers to none. They were all over each other when he was soldier boy, but once he lost the "juice", she treated him all "kitteny" and made battle decisions without him because she didn't want him to get hurt.

In S6, Spike references that maybe she "needs a little monster" in her man. It wasn't love during this season, not for Buffy, at least, but she needed it and she knew that he would heal. Whatever the dirty naughty things she did to him, punished him, he would heal. Xander, physically, may not.

*Forgive me, but I think there was a link here that someone wrote a synopsis on this eloquently, and I want to give them credit, but don't know who they are... kudos :)*

S8 also shows this. With Twilight saying (and Buffy possibly thinking) "You didn't kill her". Satsu fought with Buffy, was with Buffy, and didn't get hurt physically (jury's still out on emotionally).

Buffy doesn't hug much on the show. When she does hug, we often get the bone-crunching, air-stopping jokes that come with it. She worries in S5 that she's becoming "hard", that she lacking softness. Maybe this phyical awareness for her is a real issue.

Thoughts? :)

korkster | March 25, 21:46 CET

So basically, if Xander wants to be with Buffy he needs to start, like, leaving thumbtacks lying on the floor or moving furniture in the night so she stubs her toe ? Makes sense.

Saje | March 25, 21:52 CET

Faith didn't break Xander, nor did she seem to want for satisfaction from normal humans Xander or Wood.

I always reject argument from Spike's assertion about what Buffy needs, seeing as it was a *completely* self-serving analysis based on no first-hand knowledge designed to make Riley feel inferior. It's about as subjective and biased an opinion as you'll find.

[ edited by KingofCretins on 2008-03-25 18:54 ]

KingofCretins | March 25, 21:53 CET

Buffy the Slayer Layer, I LOVE reacting to the events that Joss dishes out to us. Every time I review my favorite shows time and time and time again, I always come up with new and different layers that I hadn't seen before. This is something that I noticed. If so, it would explain a lot about Buffy's issues with closeness... besides, you know, her coping that she no long has to be the "only chosen one"... if you care about that. ;)

korkster | March 25, 21:54 CET

You forget, KingofCretins, that Faith almost strangled Xander and would have if Angel hadn't had shown up. *tsktsk

korkster | March 25, 21:56 CET

Kork... you're transposing episodes. I'm talking about "The Zeppo", not "Consequences". And in "Consequences", she wasn't playing a sex game at that point, she was *trying* to strangle him.

KingofCretins | March 25, 21:58 CET

Saje, only if leaving the thumbtacks on the floor would also put his life in peril for the greater good... and he would recover easily from it.

*strays thought to evil tap-dancing thumbtacks...

korkster | March 25, 21:58 CET

I know, KoC, but I was focusing on Buffy, not Faith. They are not the same, and don't deal with relationships in the same way.

Now, if you're referring to Xander's attraction to her... well, she did turn him on with the whole wrestling aligators and staking vamps in the nude... who's to say that's not both sexy & dangerous?

korkster | March 25, 22:01 CET

I'm talking about the general (false) premise that an ordinary human man won't 'measure up' for a Slayer. It's been disproven repeatedly, and Faith provides a ready example. There's certainly nothing demonstrably different in Buffy's and Faith's *personalities* that establishes that Buffy is too much of an animal for an ordinary guy but Faith isn't. Buffy didn't look disappointed by Parker, or by post-depowering Riley.

KingofCretins | March 25, 22:04 CET

KoC, you're misunderstanding me here. A regular, normal guy is FINE for A Slayer. It's been known to happen (Nikki's mom, Faith, even Buffy).

I'm focusing on Buffy as a individual. It's not that normal men aren't "good" enough for her. If that were the case, she wouldn't associate herself with Owen, Scott, Xander, or Parker.

My point is that Buffy has a fear of her exertion of strength.

We see this visibly(?)/audibly shown with Giles, Xander, & Riley (non-soldier). The "oh, did I hurt you?" looks on her face when she does hug too tightly, let emotions flow through her physical body. And it's not necessarily with guys. I believe when she hugs Tara (the "Body"(?)), Tara makes a reference to needing oxygen. And to my other references before. And, also to S8 when we see Buffy kiss Xander and his head pops off. It's not the issue with the men. She has an issue with her Slayer, be it strength, constant fighting, and isolation.

korkster | March 25, 22:18 CET

I think the Tara hug was in "Triangle" when she's clutching her for reassurance that Xander and Anya aren't breaking up.

I do agree about the Xander dream in 8.02 -- after her speech to Satsu in 8.11, it felt more to me like her dream was saying that she'd get closer to him, explore that, if she wasn't convinced that it would necessarily follow that he'd be *gone* afterwards. The dream head popping off representing him getting hurt or just realizing the "wrong" she imagines in herself and leaving her.

KingofCretins | March 25, 22:23 CET

Whoa... am I ever lost. Are we talking about rough sex now? I don't think sexual performance is the issue.

I don't think Faith really cares if she puts someone in danger by getting involved with them. (By danger I mean, the Big Bads that tend to attack Slayers and the people around them.) Buffy on the other hand, does.

GrrrlRomeo | March 25, 22:33 CET

Where's a page to stand on when you need it? :)

korkster | March 25, 22:36 CET

"Oxygen becoming an issue".

Tara doesn't say that in "Triangle" though Willow does in "Doppelgangland".

moley75 | March 25, 22:51 CET

Thanks, moley75 & KoC. I knew somebody on here would remember & actually know the references that I don't. :)

korkster | March 25, 22:59 CET

All I have to say is wow, I love the digression of topics here.
Any fan having a problems with Buffy's recent taboos is still a fan. But then again if they are part of the crowd that is all like I'm never reading again...then pooey on them. I bet they stuck by Angel in S2 when he went all dark and almost evil. And in retrospect of reviewing that sentence I realize that in the 2nd season of both shows he went evil or damn close to it. ~sigh~ People are totally entitled to their opinion. And yes I may be a Joss "apologizer" and I may thinks he's "golden" but I do realize he is just a person and thus is not perfect. I will admit that though he has not disappointed me, he has worried me greatly on a few occasions. But I stuck it through and realize that he always manages to pull it out, and in retrospect it makes sense in a big picture sort of way. I also used to hate S4 and after going back and watching the episodes again, I realize there are alot of great episodes in that season. I think the show did end on an up note, maybe not on top but on a ledge close to. And it doesn't matter one wit if it went out on top or not, Joss has always professed to prefer creating something that 10 people need to see, and absolutely love, than a something that a 1000 people like to see.

So I still stick by my postulated theory that Twilight is Melaka's twin brother having found a way to time travel.

Saje: Thanks, now I have to interrupt my Angel marathon to go review all the Scott Hope episodes. The majority of my fan and logical brain says this is rubbish. But I actually think i remember him being a compulsive neck scratcher but I'm not sure if thats true or if I'm transposing false scenes just to justify probable the only path I've not traversed in the who the heck is Twilight crusade. Thanks! grumble grumble

GothicJossMinion | March 26, 00:40 CET

Scott Hope for Twilight, telling you. I will be vindicated - though admittedly probably not in any of our lifetimes or indeed that of this universe but future (possibly alien, extra-universal) Buffy scholars will come to the same conclusion no matter what the comics actually, y'know, say.

Saje | March 26, 00:53 CET

Didn't Joss say that Twilight is someone from Buffy's past?! Then the Melaka-twin-theory won't work because Buffy doesn't know anything about the Fray-thing...or does she and my Buffy-knowledge is lacking???

mmm cookies | March 26, 00:56 CET

Well the twin can time-travel so he could be from Buffy's past and future. "Hope" BTW, means "Fray" in certain Inuit circles (drunken circles, more like ovals really but still, clearly yet another clue).

Saje | March 26, 01:00 CET

Saje: Maybe with the sharing of the slayer-power Buffy created an alternative Dimension in which Scott can actually become Twilight! This would also solve some other things. Xander in a leading military-ly position, Andrew with responsibility of a whole slayer-crowd and Buffy gay! ;-)

And we all just have the wrong Dimension point of view!

Makes sense, does it?!

mmm cookies | March 26, 01:02 CET

But did Buffy ever met the Time-Travel-Twin? I don't know they did and i understand Joss's statement that Buffy and Twilight have met before.

mmm cookies | March 26, 01:05 CET

Maybe sharing the Slayer power created the anti-Buffy. Or maybe he's Spiderman, I dunno.

[ edited by Sunfire on 2008-03-25 22:08 ]

Sunfire | March 26, 01:07 CET

So Twilight is... Venom?

KingofCretins | March 26, 01:18 CET

No, wait, it's Tom Brady. He's about the same height as Twilight and has the same chiseled jaw as Mr. Light. Also, what people don't know is that Tom Brady's cousin was killed by a slayer. He doesn't care that his cousin was a vampire, because he (the vampire) was on a non-human diet, so he wasn't hurting humans. It's all about revenge for Twilight. Kenny, Dawn's boyfriend, was Tom's third cousin twice removed, so when he heard Dawn cheat on Kenny, it was the last straw. So now, he wants revenge.

crazygolfa | March 26, 01:21 CET

mmm cookies: Your knowledge is not lacking that I am aware of. DAMN foiled again...I missed the article where Joss said it was someone from her past. I was going off of the theory that it can only be 4 possible guys. In issue #11 I believe Buffy tries the split him from groin to sternum thing that she did with Caleb. Twilight says something to the effect I've already seen that move before and it won't work this time. Thus alluding to the fact that it has to be someone who knows what went down in that crypt. The only folks there were Caleb (who it could be still although he's dead), Spike (who I doubt it would be since he likes her), Angel (who it could be but only if he went evil and return from hell all space aged and supernatural again...doubtful), Buffy herself (which it would be interesting to see how she'd battle herself). Thus leaving only 2 possibilities that it either is A) one of the aforementioned suspects, or someone who had the slayer dreams and memories ala Fray's brother, OR B) that there was someone watching in that crypt that we were unaware of at the time. could be Ethan Rayne, could be Riley, could be Scott Hope, could be Michael the goth/pagan kid from HS...it could be anyone then if it has to be someone from her past. A link to the article in question would be great, b/c if its true then I have to rethink what I thought was a great theory.
~sigh~

GothicJossMinion | March 26, 01:59 CET

What about Warren? Did he die (again)? If so, I forgot.

*hangs head in shame*

korkster | March 26, 02:09 CET

GothicJossMinion: I don't know if i'll find that article again. I Joss-ed a lot the last days. And to give you some hope, it is possible that i mixed up something. I will look for it but don't promise success.

Maybe i get some backup from the community here if someone else read the concerning statement?!

mmm cookies | March 26, 02:15 CET

korkster: Well Warren was skinless and we've not heard from him or Amy post Buffy & crews retribution whilst rescuing Willow. So unless he was given new skin (which is a possibility). The what if its...blah...are endless unless its explained how they knew that specific move.

mmm cookies: I'm not doubting you, I'm just surprised I missed a Joss article. Also I haven't been reading all the comments here until recently b/c I wasn't a member and couldn't respond and thats something to drive a person crazy. tee hee.

GothicJossMinion | March 26, 02:23 CET

Twilight actually only says "I know that move Slayer" which could mean he's seen her do it or could just literally mean he knows that move (in the same way a martial artist will "know" a lot of your moves) or anything in-between. Buffy being "the one true Slayer" may well also mean that her story has spread and something like splitting Caleb in two seems like the sort of thing that might be talked about in hushed tones as evidence of how badass she is (e.g. Buffy mentions it to Willow who tells Xander who tells Andrew who tells, y'know, everyone ;).

His attitude is very like Caleb's though (saying she's whiny "like a girl", even referring to her as a girl in the first place). If it's him though I think that would change how we see "season 8", don't think there'd be much choice but to see it as either a sort of mirror of season 7 or maybe like a companion piece.

(didn't read the past reference myself but even if true, that could mean many people depending on how "out there" Joss wanted to go. Billy 'Ford' Fordham for instance, to name one)

Saje | March 26, 02:23 CET

Saje: Twilight is someone who knows Buffy intimately IMO, I plan to review the previous S8 comics to try and grasp more clues. B/c its unlike Joss not to leave a bread crumb trail however small those crumbs might be, then again on the other hand I have experience in reading more into something than is really there. (i.e.= the numbered shirts in BtVS S5 having some ulterior meaning...those that were on the Bronze at the time know this well) I just feel that as avid a fan as I am and having figured most of Joss's twists out before the majority of my friends that I should have this figured out by now.

GothicJossMinion | March 26, 02:38 CET