Tell me this isn't the interview where he said he would have opposed freeing the slaves in the Civil War in favor of something he termed "gradual emancipation". Because, well, that would be an unfortunate interview to be won over by.
Tell me this isn't the interview where he said he would have opposed freeing the slaves in the Civil War in favor of something he termed "gradual emancipation".
LOL. I have no clue. All I know is that it was on NBC's MEET THE PRESS.
Heh. Took the words right out of my mouth, bix. I'm still trying to figure out why he felt the need to come out and tell everyone he thought we ended slavery too quickly. It's not likely to help with those "Ron Paul is a racist" stories going around.
He's far more libertarian than mainstream Republican, whatever that may happen to mean in 2008. He ran as the Libertarian presidential nominee 20 years ago.
I had not heard that slavery quote, bix. Amazing. And not in the gee, wow, cool way.
I seem to recall that Emma was the most conservative member of the Buffy cast, just as was Adam Baldwin of the Firefly cast.
I saw the interview. Frankly, I don't know which is scarier to me -- Ron Paul or people who were swayed to vote for him by that interview. There are many disaffected people in this country, and there are many more who are cynical about the election process (in which group I tend to count myself), but I was truly jaw-droppingly amazed by some of Paul's answers and non-answers, and I can no longer fathom his appeal. But he's certainly raking in the dough.
I have been without broadband (Did we truly live in a dial-up world, just a few short years ago?) connection whilst moving, so I've missed much news. I do seem to recall that several Democratic candidates expressed support for the writers strike. And if so, where are their Republican counterparts? Even from Australia, Emma's choice makes me sad.
Tell me this isn't the interview where he said he would have opposed freeing the slaves in the Civil War in favor of something he termed "gradual emancipation".
Hmm, I'd be interested to hear his reasoning on why 'gradual emancipation' was necessary. I personally think freed slaves would have benefitted from some post-freedom education and aid. I think a lot of them just got cut loose with no means, so that had few options for survival.
Also, it took almost 100 years until we got the CRA, so I think that was gradual enough.
After checking out that interview and a couple of other things, I must say that this dude sounds quite sensible for a Republican. In fact, he doesn't sound like a Republican at all. But maybe it's the other Republicans who are off track, ideologically. I wouldn't know. I don't know much about ideologies or American politics, but this guy seems to do a bit more thinking than following, which I respect. Though I must say that he's a bit clumsy with words sometimes. He sort of blurts things out without formulating them first and sometimes they come out a bit easy to misenterpret. I can relate to that. Possibly asperger.
Anyway, I can see why someone would want to vote for him, and that's really a stretch coming from me as I tend to disagree with every single politician ever. Especially Americans. Especially Republicans. But at least this guy doesn't seem to be invoking the Bible every ten seconds, which puts him way ahead, and he's not for the constitutional ban on gay marriage, which puts him further ahead.
But I'm still not gonna vote for him.
Partially because it's hard to believe this guy is for real, partly because he says he's Republican and partially because I don't know his entire platform...but mostly because I'm not American.
Edited the link title a little. buffysmglover, there's no rule against political links. Neverthless, let's bear in mind the ancient saw against discussing politics (and religion) amongst friends, particularly as we have members of all stripes at Whedonesque. Please keep the conversation reasoned and polite, and address the substance of people's views rather than the individuals themselves. "Starting a riot" will lead to swifty deletion. Ta.
If i were american I would vote for Ron Paul in a heartbeat. Even though I disagree with most conservitive political values, the man is an actual HONEST politician, who seems to care first and formost about governance.
Im surprised to hear so many people query her decision. Ron Paul has gained a few million supporters over the past few months... all of which I would deem to be very decent people who only want the best for their country.
Those of you who are basing any judgement upon this one interview should do some of your own research, I think.
I think Rogue Slayer's nailed the issue Paul was speaking about. Freedom isn't a panacea, it's a starting point. There are plenty of more recent cases where "freedom!" hasn't turned out to be all sweetness & light for those freed.
And overall, I agree that political links should be considered carefully and posted cautiously, especially in the coming months. I prefer Whedonesque to be a place where I can take a break from the politics and whatnot I encounter in the rest of the web.
Hey, lookie there. Looks like SoddingNancyTribe is back in moderating form! Nice to see.
Speaking of not discussing politics, yesterday a conversation about Barack Obama turned into a heated argument between my brother (democrat) and my uncle-in-law (republican). It ended amicably without any injuries, and nobody the winner. Surprising, given the 5-2 ratio of Reps vs. Dems in the house. It's also quite unusual for my family to debate politics. It opened my eyes to the kind of misinformation out there coming from both sides.
I'm not attacking anyone or his supporters, but these are my two cents on Ron Paul and electoral politics.
The Ron Paul "revolution" seems to stem mainly from his support of immediate withdrawal from Iraq and just about everywhere where the US has a military presence.....I don't disagree at all.
Mix that in with his honest in your face style and he seems like a really great candidate. I don't know, he's popularized the free market like its handing out gifts to people ("Merry Christmas, Here's healthcare!"; "Katrina victims, here's your rebuilt city for you and not corporate interests!"). Letting the free market (true free market principles) determine prices and our way of life is not going to help anyone. But the way he lays his ideas down is pretty much his appeal. Constantly quoting the constitution and all that. Which is great because it lays down a decent system of checks and balances. However the constitution was created by land owning white men, and the least of their concerns was ending slavery. Economics first, people second. And thats my problem with Ron Paul.
Don't ask me who I'd choose then for president, because frankly its all a game in this country. If you read up on your history you'll understand that the only changes ever to come (women's rite to vote and choose, civil rights, gay rights, 8-hour day, child labor laws, unionization, ending vietnam war), came from social movements and not form presidents or congressmen.
I'm a tax and spend liberal. I make no apologies.
These aren't King George's taxes that people complain about--Like it or not, it's the cost of living in a modern, capitalist world. It is the cost of keeping a civil society "together" and "civil". Education, health-care, even some (not all) of that "pork barrel" spending are necessary to modern life. They are the infrastructure of life.
People talk about taxes as if they don't benefit from it.
I benefit from my neighbor's kids being well educated-- so they don't grow to be a drag on my property values.
I benefit if the poorest of our society are NOT sick and are GETTING better educational opportunities than my "privilged" neighbors-- So they don't feel the need to come and rob our neighborhood...
There are plenty of "selfish" reasons to be liberal... Not just cause it's the right thing to do.
[snipped]
BTW...Anya didn't start out being all "money" hungry-- just kind of clueless.
Which always made me wonder if Joss, or one of his merry minions, didn't write that in, as an elaborate "in-joke". Emma Caulfied is a smart woman and probably would have gone along with it... irony and all.
Also.. Ron Paul... I'm rootin' for him to be a spoiler.
I don't know a single liberal who is willing to split the vote this time. No one I know is voting "Nader". Only people who would never vote liberal ... SOO..
Ick. No, not the political views or the candidates or who supports them. Ick that I feel slightly compelled to bolster my political stance and enfeeble points of doctrine contrary to mine here on Whedonesque. Ick.
Emma's fairly liberal as Republicans go, not all of us are "Make Attila the Hun look like a sissy" types like I am. I don't much like Paul myself (there's only one of the candidates I do actually like) but again, Emma's not alone. Paul s eems to hAve the edge over all canddiates Democratic or Republican among active duty military. He and Richardson among the Dems are the only "immediate withdrawal from Iraq" candidates with decent poll numbers.
Let's be honest, if he was suggesting gradual emancipation starting say around 1834 I'm sure anyone would agree that would have been a better decision. (i'm not familiar with his speech, just pointing that out.)
Seriously, there are a lot of ways for the US slavery issue to have been solved other than the War Between the States and Reconstruction which would have been, in the long run, less damaging to all parties concerned. Some of those "lot" would have involved extending slavery for a generation or so; incalculably hard on that generation and their children but in any number of cases better for their grandchildren and so on.
oh god, not more ron paul stuff... i realize libertarianism seems so attractive on the surface but then you remember how neat it is to have inspected meat and child labor laws.
Vince said: Though I must say that he's a bit clumsy with words sometimes. He sort of blurts things out without formulating them first and sometimes they come out a bit easy to misenterpret. I can relate to that. Possibly asperger.
Wow, what an interesting lady she is. She lists both John Stewart and Ronald Reagan as heroes. I'm sure John Stewart is probably spinning in his...uh, chair.
But I can't not like someone who lists Gaius Baltar as a hero. And it looks like, from her tv and movie choices, she's a big nerd. She's got my vote.
And I also feel compelled to ask that folks adhere to the site rules on spelling and punctuation, i.e., that they are good things. Yes, the most pedantic moderator is, indeed, back.
Please tell me that's not actually Emma Caulfield's MySpace page. Because if it is, I think it's just ruined Anya for me.
Yes, that is her page. Check out the photos in her Myspace Photos. She has some that were taken by herself.
I read her other blog entries, and she certainly has some strong opinions now, doesn't she? Must be informed by all those hours spent reading "Jane Austin."
Tibbitz; I'm interested also in what you meant, especially since neither work nor the library allows me access to MySpace, so I can't actually read her blog.
Is it just knowing Emma is sort of rightish-of-center makes Anya 's hard-core cpaitalism harder to take?
Or are you judging Emma (and I have to admit you didn't *say* your judgment was negative, but it "almost sounded" that way) just because this is the first you're finding out what party she's registered in?
ETA: hbojo, what do you mean by a "spoiler"? Hoping he loses the Republican nom. and goes Independent?
Which always made me wonder if Joss, or one of his merry minions, didn't write that in, as an elaborate "in-joke". Emma Caulfied is a smart woman and probably would have gone along with it... irony and all.
I love this idea. While Anya encouraged Xander to make money to buy her things in season four, I think the real start of the uber-capitalism came from Fury, didn't it, in the Game of Life in "Real Me"? And then her role in the store in Petrie's "No Place Like Home"? Of course, Goddard made her a recovering communist too, in "Selfless".
The cast and crew have always been very comfortable with jokingly mocking differing political views (i.e. right-winger Tim Minear calling Joss "Kerry-boy").
As for the debate on the gradual emancipation, a Buffyverse example that comes to mind is "Chosen": Buffy may have been right in giving the girls freedom, but the decision *has* to be backed up by her working to ease the transition of the girls into their new empowered state, which she is doing in Season Eight. So too are sudden introductions of freedom without any help easing the transition inappropriate.
(By the way, I recently saw, and recommend, Deepa Mehta's film "Earth," about the chaos in India after the British's departure and partitioning; no one disputes that the British should have given India its independence back, but they departed without doing anything to deal with the chaos they left in their wake.)
I've said this before, but it was on a thread already off the front page. Ron Paul is not a breath of fresh air to me, having grown up in a nearby district in Texas, where he's been an elected representative for most of more than 30 years. He was one of the pioneer Republicans getting elected (in previously Democratic areas) by appealing to anti-civil rights, anti-choice, and pro-business (Texas-style) interests. His eccentricities were acceptable because of those. Now he's trying to get elected as President based on the ideological stuff, the eccentricities that appeal to independents - what he's said rather than what he's done for the most part, and very selective parts of each. Please don't buy it. I've been horrified for years by what people have been importing politically from Texas.
Look closer. There is a lot of toxicity, like the lead paint from China. Texas should be embargoed.
Eeek, I'm away from this site for a few days and suddenly y'all are talking about Ron Paul. Dreamlogic, I agree, except I'd like to defend Texas by pointing out that it also produced Molly Ivins and a lot of good music in Austin. (Btw, I've been away for a good cause. My sister is visiting, and I managed to get her addicted to Buffy. We are watching episodes back to back.)
A whole lot of Ron Paul's national popularity is his pledge to withdraw troops and (a bonus promise) to not start another war against Iran. That said, much of his Meet the Press Interview revealed some convenient historical oversights. Such as not mentioning that the Civil War was fought for the most part to keep the US actually united. Ron Paul says he is a constitutionalist but when in the pre civil rights era some states were deliberately abrogating an entire population's right to vote which was clearly not in keeping with the constitution he still sees no reason why the Federal Government had to intervene via The 1964 Voting Rights Act. There couldn't be anything more important than being able to vote and have it count and this is a proper role for the Federal government. That said, he is intriguing because he forces us to re-think old programs and Washington ways and maybe question a bit. So while he is loose with history and constitutional logic he does make us take a second look at our views.
Eeek, I'm away from this site for a few days and suddenly y'all are talking about Ron Paul. Dreamlogic, I agree, except I'd like to defend Texas by pointing out that it also produced Molly Ivins and a lot of good music in Austin. (Btw, I've been away for a good cause. My sister is visiting, and I managed to get her addicted to Buffy. We are watching episodes back to back.)
No, just the politics. Molly Ivins is dead, and I'm not feeling so good myself. She tried to be as cheerful for as long as she could, even trying to put the best face possible on Dubya, but had to give it up. I'm really just talking about the politics. The music and the food should be everywhere. I'm always praying for Taco Cabana to come here.
I wonder if people really understand what libertarianism is about. Paul is the closest we have to a true libertarian, and as an ethicist who believes firmly in the four principles and in the adequate allocation of health care for all, I cannot countenance his candidacy. Though truly, if I had to pick between him and any republican (which I do not, as I am a hardcore democrat), I'd take him in a moment. I live in Iowa. I'm Jewish. Huckabee runs ads here on TV that state "Mike Huckabee. Christian leader." Well, rather the libertarian who will end the war then the anti-evolution Bible thumper who might hold the nuclear trigger and believes in the Rapture. As to Emma, I wish it were otherwise.
The first amendment is Freedom of Speech--a very important amendment to all of us in the "good, old US of A" to quote Anya. Individuals are entitled to their opinions, which makes this forum fun to read. Members of Whedonesque are entitled to NOT read politically-themed posts, or any posts they wish to avoid.
I don't read every post on the forum, as some do not interest me. This one did, I read it, and I enjoyed the commentary. Some may not. To those some--don't read it if it will offend you or reduce the pleasure you find in perusing this site. However, do not limit the rights of others who may find the occasional political post interesting and thought provoking.
Not sure whom you're addressing there, pinkie7. No one is trying to limit any member's enjoyment of this thread, so far as I can see. As for the 1st Amendment, - if you want to get all technical, - it restricts only government action; consequently, none of you has a (constitutional) "right" to read, write, opine, or otherwise interject on this here site. But we're glad you choose to do so. :-)
Sorry 'bout that, hbojo: knock back a beer, scratch yourself, and you'll be right as rain again.
Just addressing in general. A few of the comments above leaned toward non-political commentary on the site, and some members stated that Emma's political views were not to their liking. She's a talented actress, we've all enjoyed her performance as Anya, and it would be sad if her political views swayed someone away from enjoying that performance. (Hence, the reference to the First Ammendment in defense of Emma, not posting on the site.)
Anytime someone supports a politician who is against the federal government intervening in matters of civil rights, it makes me a little sad. Although I'm for limited federal government on a lot of issues, civil rights is something that can't be left up to local government.
People have the impression that because Ron Paul is against the Federal Amendment to ban gay marriage that he is for marriage equality. He's not. He's just against changing the Federal Constitution so that local government can ban gay marriage. In fact, if a local government wanted to ban homosexuality altogether, he supports their power to do that. He even introduced a bill that would give states the power to do just that (and overturn Lawerence v. Texas.)
I don't think that there is anything I can say about Huckabee that isn't tainted by my obvious biases. I am generally not one to say anything about libertarianism, either, but I wonder if some people leaning that way might be being tricked by the Paul campaign's flooding of the Internet. I can email copyrighted material demonstrating to those interested that Paul is against scientific research on cloning (to include stem cell research) more than Bush. How does that favor liberty?
Yes, the most pedantic moderator is, indeed, back.
There goes the neighbourhood ;).
I've quite a lot of sympathy for libertarianism as an idea but then Communism doesn't seem too bad on paper either and look how that turned out.
If we're jumping into boxes then i'm socially liberal and fiscally fairly conservative - by European standards that is i.e. i'm still happy enough for a portion of my income to go towards universal, free (at the point of service) health-care and a limited welfare system, I just don't want basic income tax rates set at 55% in order to cover it. Pure libertarianism just seems to miss the failings of lassez faire capitalism to me though (i.e. monopolies, high barriers to entry, large and increasing income gaps etc.) but even a cursory inspection tells you that this guy isn't a pure libertarian, he's just a fairly right-wing Republican with some libertarian leanings (small, non-interventionist government has always been a Republican thing, right ? This guy just wants a smaller government than most).
That said, don't know much about him, at the moment it's not that relevant to me (though if he looks like he may become US President then it certainly will be) but he at least seems to have the courage of his convictions, even if I don't agree with many/most of them (speaking out against farming subsidies - one of the more hypocritical Republican policies it seems to me - when you're a Texas congressman isn't cowardly, whatever else it may be).
(and i've always known Emma Caulfield was a Republican, just like AB and TM, though her blog - assuming that's actually hers - paints her as a bit, err, strident with it. Doesn't put me off Anya though. AB, in fact, is also a Bush fan from what I gather which must make him, like, a Republican squared or something - not to mention an increasing rarity ;)
You've convinced me that you don't know much about U.S politics, Saje ;). All Republicans are for smaller government. Until they get in office and massively increase spending, in deficit.
The real Anyanka would make them eat all that gold until they burst.
All Republicans are for smaller government. Until they get in office and massively increase spending, in deficit.
Heh, yeah I might come across as believing that NOT all politicians say one thing when running then do another when they get in. I feel like i've blown any "die-hard cynic" cred I may have had ;-).
I'm trying to spread cynicism in this instance, reluctantly, because I feel that faith is being misplaced. I'm all for faith, if I could only figure out where to put it in this system.
Adam Baldwin DCA (though thinking about it, maybe he was more about respecting the office of President rather than the current individual ?).
Yeah, faith in the system is hard to maintain dreamlogic. Like whoever it was that said it said, "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others" ;).
I'm not really sure why a lot of people on this forum seem to equate Emma Caulfield with Anya. She's not Anya, she's an actress who played her. Making the distinction is important because there's no reason why anyone's personal views should "ruin" your enjoyment of the character. I mean, just because Jayne Cobb is a thief and a robber doesn't mean you should expect the same from Adam Baldwin. I doubt anyone's enjoyment of The Sopranos is ruined because James Gandolfini is NOT a mobster in real life. One's personal picks in politics or religion should not affect your understanding that the actor and the character are entirely separate.
I'm not sure I support Ron Paul, but I am conservative. And I'd like to point out that no one has yet to actually provide a link to the Ron Paul interview in which he supposedly promotes graduated emancipation. I personally can't find it, but I haven't looked too hard since I'm posting this and trying to get out the door to run errands.
His point on slavery had to do with ending slavery by means other than a devastating war (like other countries did). This does not equal being against ending slavery.
Which other candidates (either major party), who had a vote, voted against the Iraq war AND against the "Patriot" Act from the beginning?
Dr. Paul did.
Don't judge any candidate by sound-bytes or one dimension of a three dimensional stance. Some things that he says aren't understood without hearing the rest of his answer. Like decriminalizing marijuana, understanding the damage of the "Inflation Tax", or how our interventionist foreign policies have provoked terrorist attacks on our country.
As with any candidate, we should hear their entire response, and not just something pulled out that somebody chose for us to hear. Not that we should ignore those, just investigate and get the whole story, please.
I'm obviously a Ron Paul supporter. He's the first presidential candidate in my lifetime (and I'm pretty old)that I feel I can enthusiastically support with my money and my vote. I agree with Emma (though not from that particular Tim Russert interview, check him out on the Colbert Report -YouTube it).
I think this candidate is worth the time to research.
hmm.. this is funny...but as long as we're wondering...
I think that certain captain would be pro-choice and Ron Paul ain't.
And that's a deal breaker for any self-respecting feminist
and i've always known Emma Caulfield was a Republican, just like AB and TM,
If you're talking about Tim Minear, I believe he's a Libertarian, not a Republican.
Which other candidates (either major party), who had a vote, voted against the Iraq war AND against the "Patriot" Act from the beginning?
Dr. Paul did.
So did Barack Obama, and he's the one I'm voting for.
hmm.. this is funny...but as long as we're wondering...
I think that certain captain would be pro-choice and Ron Paul ain't.
And that's a deal breaker for any self-respecting feminist
That's my policy. Lay off my rights, and I mean all of them. I just can't trust anyone who wants to take away a right. That's a dangerous slope, and I don't want to end up living in a fascist country.
CaffeinatedSquint- but there are actors whose political views I find so offensive that I will not entertain any attempt to ever watch what they do- people like Ted Nugent, Ron Silver, James Wood, etc. I do not conflate the actor with the role, but I do the actor with her or her public pronouncements.
Which other candidates (either major party), who had a vote, voted against the Iraq war AND against the "Patriot" Act from the beginning?
Dr. Paul did.
So did Barack Obama, and he's the one I'm voting for.
Obama didn't have a vote at the time of the Iraq or original Patriot Act voting periods, to my knowledge.
On that Meet the Press interview, (approx. min. 6.30 of the youtube feature above) Dr. Paul does explain his stance on how the country should have simply phased out slavery rather than go to war. He lays it at Lincoln's feet as an attempt to expand federal power.
If my memory serves, the country *was* trying to phase out slavery for decades and the southern states got upset enough about it to secede from the country before Lincoln took office. Terms like "Bloody Kansas" came out of that attempt to phase out slavery. The Confederate States of America was formed before Lincoln even became president. The war happened to keep to try to put the country back together.
If Dr. Paul wants to argue whether there was another way for Lincoln to get the south to return to the USA, fine, but it is a bit ingenuous to suggest that by the time Lincoln came into office all he would have had to do was offer to buy the slaves freedom or that the war was the country's first attempt to end slavery. For that matter it is a bit ingenuous to act like the war was all Lincoln's doing. When he arrived in office the southern states had already formed a separate government and were denying access to federal forts in their territory. They also started shooting at ships and attacked Fort Sumter within the first three months of Lincoln's presidency.
That was not a one sided war in any sense. There is plenty of responsibility to go around. One thing for sure, the south did not secede because they were looking for a federal buy-out scheme.
I get suspicious of candidates who rewrite and dumb-down history for their own purposes.
I think a certain beloved Firefly captain would be a staunch Ron Paul supporter.
I think that certain captain would be pro-choice and Ron Paul ain't.
To borrow an insight applied to someone much better known than Malcolm Reynolds, what a person sees in Mal often says far more about them than it does about Mal.
I'd caution against continuing this thread further into the political realm. Mentioning abortion is one step away from Godwin's law. Politeness and our social contract restrain me from further comment.
jclemens -- Fair enough, about Mal. And I agree with you on the abortion comment. But who are you borrowing this insight from? Just curious. It sounds familiar but I can't place it.
Oh good, newjc already explained the Civil War context similarly to how I would have done. Ron Paul's comments are a mix of truth and misconception. Early during the Civil War, gradually buying out slaves was one option that was still being debated within the Republican party. It's true that ending slavery wasn't a war goal until a few years into the war, but the war was all about the future of slavery. Lincoln went to war to restore the union; however, his original position when he was elected in 1860 (and which led to the first group seceding) was to limit the spread of slavery to new states. So no, he wasn't the staunch abolitionist some people think he was. But he was planning to make the first move that would phase slavery out by disrupting the delicate balance of power that the free and slave states had negotiated at that point. Plan A was something gradual. The length of the war forced his hand on the larger issue of slavery to a new Plan B.
What made the question of slavery in the U.S. different than other countries and capable of leading to a civil war was the inherent economic dichotomy: a southern agrarian economy that was dependent on slave labor and a northern industrial economy that wasn't. Slavery wasn't just a way of life in the south-- it was the entire economy. Most of the southern states saw any threat to slavery, such as Lincoln's election, as a threat to their very survival. Hence a war to settle the issue.
I find it a bit disturbing, no names here, about not watching certain performers professionally for reasons of their politics. I know indivdual viewers don't have the power of a studio system behind them but it reminds me a bit of blacklists. Of course I will avoid a performer because of "addytood" so perhaps I'm not consistent here.
And given that Emma is a Republican, and this is primary s eason, I'd see it as bad taste to endorse candidates in other parties yet *grin.
Dana5140, I understand your justification for never watching anything that a particular person does if that person has obviously abhorrable beliefs, and I agree, but as we live in a free society (whether in the U.S., Canada, or Europe, Australia, etc.) we are free to believe in what we want. It's that generally most of us believe oppressive government (Communism, for example) is wrong, and I don't think anyone would say that they could support Communism.
That said, I think on matters as political party affiliation where neither party is a dictatorship, and we're operating under free choice, I don't think it's really fair to say you are angry, disappointed, or ANYTHING with an actor when he or she has beliefs, just like all of us do. I am personally a Republican, but would never stop watching an actor's work that I enjoy, if that person were Democratic or Libertarian. Their political affiliation does not affect my enjoyment of their roles because I feel that none of the major three parties are BAD or corrupt. I wouldn't support Communism, because that IS bad and corrupt in many ways.
I will, however, enjoy an actor's work less, if they make decisions that I think are morally apprehensible in their own lives. I'm not going to watch another Ben Affleck movie, not because Ben Affleck is a Democrat, but because I don't tend to enjoy his choice in roles. But if he were to advocate something so obviously morally apprehensible as to that the majority of the people, regardless of politics, would regard as offensive (say, if he were to suggest that women were second-class and shouldn't vote) then not only would I have problems watching his movies, but I feel that Sydney Bristow would exact revenge and then I might be able to watch Good Will Hunting again.
If you're talking about Tim Minear, I believe he's a Libertarian, not a Republican.
Well IIRC he was referred to as Republican and a Bush supporter in 2004 electricspacegirl (it's mentioned a few times on this thread about the Kerry fundraiser) by people like Alyson (who seems to have real world contact with him) though obviously that may well be because he didn't have the opportunity to vote libertarian (and he may no longer support Bush - right thinking people change their minds about stuff like that all the time, whichever "side" of the arbitrary left/right divide they happen to sit on).
Of course I will avoid a performer because of "addytood" so perhaps I'm not consistent here.
Old ground to some extent (Orson Scott Card casts a long shadow ;) but though I don't really care about an actor's politics, if I found out for instance that an actor felt that AIDS was God's vengeance on gays for being evil, that'd give me pause. Some knowledge just permanently colours your view of a person and if you can completely forget that when watching them act then I think you've an uncommon knack for compartmentalisation (that's the big 'you' BTW, not any actual 'you's on this thread ;).
CaffeinatedSquint: I realized as a teenager restricting my viewing due to politics would limit me to old Ronald reagna and George Murphy movies so your approach is sensible.
Saje;If an example is useful, I strongly objected to the Actual choice of words the lead singe fromt he Dixie Chicks used toe xpress her feeling sbaout Iraq while in copncert but I had no problem with ehr talking baout it. But when the fiddler from the group said she was glad they had recorded an album that had maved away form country format because she didn't want their songs on the same stations with a couple harmless fun songs she proceeded to bash, then I said good riddance.
CS and DCA- why ever would I wish to provide financial support, by my watching, of someone whose views I find reprehensible? This is not a "I won't watch republicans" comment- it is that the specific people I mention have made such vitriolic public comments about people who think differently than they do that I cannot in good conscience pay them further attention. This is, in a country which values free speech, my choice. I have not said they should shut up, or not express their views; I am exercising my right to not provide them support. That is NOT a black list; it is the marketplace in action. Just as I will not eat at McDonalds, or shop at Wal-Mart because I do not agree with their policies, I will not watch these actors because I feel that they are beyond the pale with their comments. Just as I would never purchase a book by Anne Coulter, I will never buy a CD by Ted Nugent. But I would fight for their right to write them or to record them. In what way is this wrong, if you believe in free speech?
I never said it was wrong, I said that I would understand the justification for not watching something one finds morally reprehensible. I don't watch a lot of things for that reason...but politics aren't my issue. Morality is. I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican or you believe that aliens will soon come and liberate you. If your morals are not what I agree with to the extent that you downright change my opinion of who you are, regardless of what you've done or continue to do, I will not support you.
Don Imus is the perfect example. I don't care how much money he's donated to various African-American groups or even if he goes and adopts eight children from Africa, what he said about the women's basketball team was deeply offensive and unforgiveable to me. I've never listened to Don Imus, but even if he was a musician or an actor instead of a radio host, I'd extend the same courtesy I'd extend to anyone else who makes comments such as those - I wouldn't support them. But it has nothing to do with whether Don Imus is Democrat or Republican.
Tibbittz; I'm interested also in what you meant, especially since neither work nor the library allows me access to MySpace, so I can't actually read her blog.
Is it just knowing Emma is sort of rightish-of-center makes Anya 's hard-core capitalism harder to take?
Or are you judging Emma (and I have to admit you didn't *say* your judgment was negative, but it "almost sounded" that way) just because this is the first you're finding out what party she's registered in?
- DaddyCatALSO
Well, I'm always surprised to find out someone in the arts, and especially someone who's been involved in such an arguably progressive project as Buffy would support ideas/political parties that are inherently regressive. But it wasn't her political affiliation that I found so off-putting; rather it was this blog post:
It’s only natural
Maybe you haven't heard about the the breast feeding sit-ins that some crazy "activists" are pushing for, but I have. Sigh. Recently a mother was asked to cover up while breast feeding her baby while "dining" at an Applebees restaurant in Arizona. In an attempt to squash the discomfort of the other patrons, the manager asked if she could cover her breast while in the dining room. She explained she didn't have a blanket and then made it clear she was offended by his request and soon made her story national news. It is her "right" to breast feed in public, whenever and wherever she pleases.
Soon to follow were accusations of discrimination and the demands for apologies. An argument this woman and other Lactivists have made is that breast feeding is natural and therefor should be excepted and therefor catered to by all. They haven't actually said they should be catered to but really, that's what they want.
But you know breast feeding IS natural. And you know what else is natural? Sex. Should couples be allowed to shag in between meals if their desire overcomes them? What about relieving one's bladder or bowels? That's certainly natural, so should we forego using bathrooms as well? Hell while we're at it, being naked is the most natural thing in the world so should nudists be allowed to dine in the buff while sampling the all you can salad bar? The answer to these questions is no.
- Emma Caulfield
I think it's patently absurd that we have, as a culture, distanced ourselves so far from public breastfeeding that it's thought of by anyone as vulgar. It'll be hard now for me to watch Caulfield as Anya and not be reminded of how strongly I disagree with her views.
Not that this will actually ruin Anya for me, I was being dramatic...
Sorry, Sunfire, but I think you misspelt "new nation." As much as we like to ignore it, the War for Southern Independence had a lot of economic and military similarities with the American Revolutionary War: Smaller, more agrarian section seceeds from larger, more populous industrial nation, which proceeds to launch a war of aggression to reconqueor the rebellious provinces.
Of course, we know what the moral issues and military outcomes were in each war, but the similarities are all-so-often overlooked. Fort Sumter was sovereign soil of the Confederate States of America, which it had de facto nationalized as part of secession. For the USA to attempt to resuppy it, rather than withdrawing its troops, was the initial act of war.
Morally ambiguous stories are part of what makes Firefly and Angel (and, to a lesser extent, Buffy) so interesting. Funny thing is, if you look beyond the dumbed-down versions we got in grade school, there's plenty of moral ambiguity right smack in the middle of history.
Tibbittz, That breastfeeding post made me cringe too. But then again, I'm just one of those self-absorbed lactivists who is looking to be "catered to." Among the outrageous demands that I placed on the public during the years that I was nursing both my children were (1) that I not be arrested for public indecency for the crime of feeding my child in the manner perfected through millions of years of evolution, and (2) that I not be told by restaurant and store managers that the only place I am allowed to feed my child is in their skanky bathrooms, both of which are in fact rights protected by law in the vast majority of states. Those women raising such a stink aren't looking for special rights; they're just protesting the failure of the public to respect the rights granted to them by law.
I won't even touch the post denouncing atheists who have the audacity to advocate for a separation of church and state ...
The dispute with Applebee’s began June 14. Ryan chose a booth in the back of the restaurant away from other customers. When her baby, Michael, got hungry, she began to nurse him discreetly, she said.
But a waitress came over and said that if she wanted to breast-feed, she had to cover the baby with a blanket. Ryan said it was so hot that she didn’t have a blanket. The waitress then repeated her request. Ryan said she then asked to see the manager and handed him a copy of the 2006 law that prohibits any interference with a woman breast-feeding her baby in public.
The manager said he knew about the law but a customer had complained about indecent exposure, so she had to cover the baby with a blanket.
Just as her food arrived, Ryan left to nurse her baby in her car.
Her lawyer wrote a letter to Thomas and King, the company that operates Central Kentucky’s Applebee’s. They got no response. After a second letter, a Thomas and King lawyer said the restaurant chain would consider keeping blankets in the restaurant so that breast-feeding women could cover themselves.
“That’s like telling Rosa Parks she still had to sit in the back of the bus, but we’ll give her a blanket to make her more comfortable,” Ryan said.
Yep, that's a really "crazy" woman there who obviously is just looking for the public to cater to her.
I think it's patently absurd that we have, as a culture, distanced ourselves so far from public breastfeeding that it's thought of by anyone as vulgar.
I'm always amazed that it's apparently just the 'nippular' area that is offensive, given what passes for bathing suits and bikinis these days.
That said, is it unreasonable to ask someone to cover up their breast, regardless of why it is out? I've seen tons of women breastfeeding in public, and every one of them covered themselves with a blanket.
I mean, if we're going to say you can expose your breast to breastfeed, then why can I not expose my breast for the fun of it? Then you get into a bit of hairy territory with equal rights and whatnot.
Mind you, I think people should be able to go around nude if they want, and that we are a far too puritanical society, but just going along with society...it should be even-steven, if you ask me.
Ryan said she then asked to see the manager and handed him a copy of the 2006 law that prohibits any interference with a woman breast-feeding her baby in public.
Wow, that kind of sounds like a woman who was aiming to either start a lawsuit or prove a point. Who walks around with laws in their purse??
After a second letter, a Thomas and King lawyer said the restaurant chain would consider keeping blankets in the restaurant so that breast-feeding women could cover themselves.
Good for them. I don't agree with making people breastfeed in the restroom, because after all, that doesn't seem very hygenic. But asking them to cover with, and even providing, a blanket. Seems fair enough. Clearly some people find expose breasts offensive, and if you're a business trying to keep everyone happy, it seems a fair compromise. You're allowing the mother to feed her child naturally, and you're allowing the other patrons to not feel...whatever they feel by seeing a boob. Offended. Disgusted. Whatever negative emotions boobs evoke.
I won't even touch the post denouncing atheists who have the audacity to advocate for a separation of church and state ...
That post, as well as the breast feeding post, also made me realize just how much I disagree with Emma's politics and beliefs. But they also made me think that she may just be an even better actress than I gave her credit for... she sold Anya completely, even if the character was used in service of messages she may not believe in herself. I always knew Emma had excellent comedic timing, but now, I am pretty convinced she is a great actress. And if she came over to my house for dinner, we'd have a nice boring discussion about the weather :)
Wow, I hadn't noticed her breastfeeding post. It's almost funny it's so absurd, though I don't think she's particularly unusual in feeling that way. But I think she'll change her mind if she ever lactates. She'll change if she's ever a sleep-deprived, hormonally-deranged new mother just trying to enjoy an evening of normalcy out at a restaurant while her baby screams, SCREAMS to nurse and the only place she can do it without drawing attention is the skanky public restroom.
But you know, it gives me new respect for the cast and crew of Buffy, that they co-existed (I think peacefully?) with Emma. Some of the DVD commentary would suggest they really liked her. I think that says a lot, that they saw the woman, not her wacky politics.
Wow, that kind of sounds like a woman who was aiming to either start a lawsuit or prove a point. Who walks around with laws in their purse??
A woman who is smart enough to know what her rights are and who is experienced enough to know that a large portion of the public is not similarly informed.
Signed,
Another woman who once carried a copy of her state's right to breastfeed law with her. ;-)
... then why can I not expose my breast for the fun of it? Then you get into a bit of hairy territory with equal rights and whatnot.
Well, men can already expose their breasts for the fun of it (though we might not get served in bars or supermarkets) so the equal rights thing doesn't worry me ;).
The thing is Rogue Slayer, some people find exposed hair offensive, they still don't have the right (in Western countries) to ask people that don't share their beliefs to cover their heads. And surely it could be she'd had trouble before and so got a copy of the law to cover herself (ba dum dum ;) ?
Just read the "Let's make a big church/state pie cos the founding fathers she praises so highly really didn't want the two kept separate (all evidence to the contrary)" post. She likes her totally unsubstantiated, ill-considered rants doesn't she ? Love it, everyone should have a hobby ;).
I would guess this woman carried a copy of the law in her purse because this was not the first time she had been told she couldn't breast feed her child in public and she was willing to take a stance.
And in Ontario, 10 years ago, it was decided that women could go topless where they pleased. More or less.
WOW.. what is VERY interesting about this thread to me.
Is that it continues.. that more and more people voice opinions about Caulfield's politics.
On other boards that I read (where testosterone is king...her opinions would not even raise an eyebrow).
Regardless, of the political stripes in here-- it seems that Whedonites just seem to be more politically interesting (eventhough you conservatives are wrong....we still love you).
Emma's opinions breastfeeding opinions aren't exactly mainstream... but I have to admit that they need to be confronted when appropriate.
I don't believe that it's right to just let other's "be" with what are patently wrong ideas. It's good to confront bad ideas.
Otherwise, bad ideas gain currency.
I'm still apalled by the fact that every American is not outraged at our involvement in a war based on false premises.
Regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum... the fact that we are in Iraq and there were NO WMDs should make us ashamed. It's not a matter of left and right... but of right and wrong.
Over-all comment, ye gods I wish I could read soem of these blogs of hers ! I might not agree with her more than about 54% of the time but it sounds like interesting reading. I won't deal with the lactation one since all sides seem to have been covered.
Dana5140; Sorry, I was taking your comment a bit more broadly than you meant it. I'm the last person to ever comment on another's decision to avoid spending money :-).
hbojo; The main probklem with Iraq is we're there now and just withdrawing isn't good way to deal with that emssy rel;aity.
Tibbitz;Just for the sake of argument, I could say the Buffyverse has a strong conservative element it it also, mainly because it has a fairly specific moral code running thru it and most prime-time shows, well, don't.
jclemens;Britain wasn't all that industrialized at the time; the economic asepcts were very different in the two wars.
hst3k; Emma and Tonyw ere the only actors from the casts invited to Aly and Alexis's wedding. Thsoe 4 plus AMy Acker, Nicky, and Charisma, plus their various spousen* are all fairly close socially last I heard.
You know, out of curiosity, I looked up my state's breastfeeding rights, which state: Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a mother may
breastfeed her child in any location, public or private, except the
private home or residence of another, where the mother and the child
are otherwise authorized to be present.
Now, of course, I've never argued anyone's right to breastfeed in public, but whether if 'covering up' is called for. The law doesn't really address it. And I wonder what the consensus would be if the mother were in a school. But like I said, it's never been an issue in my experience, as all breastfeeding women I've seen cover up in public, and from those I've talked to, they don't particularly like having their breast exposed to the public anyway.
A woman who is smart enough to know what her rights are and who is experienced enough to know that a large portion of the public is not similarly informed.
Signed,
Another woman who once carried a copy of her state's right to breastfeed law with her. ;-)
So this woman probably had prior experiences of breastfeeding in public, without cover, and people asking her to cover? Not speaking to the legality of it, but I'd just bring a blanket in the future if that happened. But then again, I'm not big on fighting for rights that don't really have much consequence, just because it's a right. I mean, breastfeeding in public is a right. Yes, fight for that. But being asked to cover up is not taking that right away from you. I mean, I'm sure she had a spit-up rag with her, if she is an experience mother. I wonder if her main problem was them asking her to cover up, or her impression that she had to leave. If they had provided her with a blanket, would she have refused it on principle? Didn't sound that way, sounded like she simply didn't have one. And did the restaurant insist she leave? I guess I just don't have enough facts to really get a full picture of the situation.
The thing is Rogue Slayer, some people find exposed hair offensive, they still don't have the right (in Western countries) to ask people that don't share their beliefs to cover their heads.
Yes, but in countries where it is against the accepted 'law' to expose your hair, they certainly can ask you to cover your head. And it seems in the US, it is not accepted to expose your breasts, so you are asked to cover them.
I would guess this woman carried a copy of the law in her purse because this was not the first time she had been told she couldn't breast feed her child in public and she was willing to take a stance.
I guess my point is, from the info we have, she wasn't told she can't breast feed in public. She was asked to cover up, as it was apparently offending other patrons.
But you know, it gives me new respect for the cast and crew of Buffy, that they co-existed (I think peacefully?) with Emma. Some of the DVD commentary would suggest they really liked her. I think that says a lot, that they saw the woman, not her wacky politics.
You know, for some reason, a lot of people in this world have made it a point to add in the words "in spite of" as if politics should be a yardstick for us to compare each other to. I don't care what your politics are, if you're a bad person who hates others, I'm not going to respect you.I don't feel as if anyone from the cast "put up with" or simply "co-existed" with Emma. It's not as if she had leprosy, for heaven's sake. That's one of the problems with this world, that instead of seeing people for being people, common decent human beings, we see red hat or blue hat, and we think that people with beliefs that are different than ours can't possibly get along with "normal" folks because obviously, Emma's politics are CRAZY.
I personally wouldn't like to breastfeed in public, thankyouverymuch. Forgive me for being extremely puritanical, but I think it'd just be a little distracting to the other restaurant-goers, if it was obvious. This woman wasn't being obvious, which is fine, that I have no problem with, but I don't think Emma should be judged or written off for expressing her opinion, which I'm sure is the same as many others.
And how dare any of us single Emma out for her comments. It's not as if any of us ever read one article on the internet and make opinions without digging through four or five other ones to confirm the details, right? I'm sure all of us do it a lot, even if we try not to. Her comments regarding the breastfeeding woman were not "she's a wretched human being" but simply that just because it is natural, perhaps it should not be done everywhere. That's a sensible line of logic, IMO.
And it seems in the US, it is not accepted to expose your breasts, so you are asked to cover them.
seem slightly contradictory Rogue Slayer. If we don't know then we don't know, we can't say whether it's protected OR illegal.
I kind of agree though that it makes sense to pick your battles and (the odd occasion apart, usually in the morning or pre-coffee ;) i'm not really the sort to fight over the small things either. But then I guess everyone has different priorities on "issues".
And how dare any of us single Emma out for her comments.
We dare like ... this ;). Seriously, she posted comments in public, that means the public get to scrutinise them (just as all our comments on here are open to scrutiny and, within the rules of the site and the mods' judgement, being challenged/ridiculed). And anyway, I very much doubt she's so thin skinned to be bothered by it. Her logic's not "insane and happenstance" but at the same time it just boils down to what some find offensive and what others don't so in this instance, logic doesn't really help us (unless it's actually been ruled illegal, which seems murky).
It was not really to imply that we shouldn't discuss a public figure's comments...but rather that I think a lot of times, conservative people are labeled as 'crazy' or 'extremist' when their opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. I've spent a good spell fighting the labeling, so I guess any annoyance I feel at some of the kind folks' comments on her politics or beliefs stems from the fact that it does really seem like there's a lot of hate out there for conservative people.
Fair point, I don't like expressions like "right-wingnut" etc. either (or the corresponding anti left-wing versions) and it's also probably true that, on here at least, there are maybe more lefties than elsewhere on t'intarwebs (or those that are here are more vocal) so that she's coming in for disproportionate flak but I fundamentally disagree that everyone's opinions are equally valid. Everyone is equally entitled to have an opinion, that doesn't make them all as sensible as each other, otherwise we render the idea of "sense" itself meaningless (if she claimed for instance that women shouldn't breast feed in public because of anti-breast-feeding pixies then I think/hope we'd all agree that her opinion wasn't particularly valid).
In general, the (few) posts i've read have been ad hominem (in a general sense), ranty and sometimes nonsensical. That's fine, she's absolutely entitled to express herself any way she likes and on one level it's quite entertaining. Doesn't mean we have to just accept it without comment if it rubs us up the wrong way though (anymore than Ms Caulfield has to).
I'm like Tibbitz...I'm always surprised when I find out that people involved in the arts (especially something like Buffy) have political views like this.
I don't think republicans are bad people, and I think extremist democrats are just as reprehensible as extremist republicans. (Seriously, Tim Robbins is uber-talented, but I want to punch him in the face every time he starts talking about politics despite the fact that I agree with most of his beliefs). And if I want to, I can say that this disappoints me a little...and it does. I mean, she's as fully entitled to her beliefs as I am mine, but I always associate Buffy with liberalism.
Plus, her blog posts just seem rather insane, at least by my definition of insanity. And she's got a Rudy Giuliani thing on her MySpace (yet also tons of Bono admiration, which boggles my mind). Ugh.
This doesn't change Buffy or the Anya character for me, though. She's a very talented actress, and I will continue to enjoy her work. I mean, when I found out that Trey Parker and Matt Stone were registered republicans I nearly had a heart attack, but South Park continues to be one of the best shows on television (or at least it will if this damned strike ever comes to an end). Though I must say, their views seem way closer to mine than Emma's, and also sensible.
I admire Bono AND Rudy G., does that make it such a dichotomy? I don't fully support President Bush right now, but I don't regret voting for him. Is that such a dichotomy? I think many of us are surprised when actors have conservative political views because the most outspoken people are almost ALWAYS very liberal (Ben Affleck, Sean Penn, to name a few). Thus there is some bizarre notion that because some are like this, all of them are like this. Overall, I think most of Hollywood is liberal. But it doesn't mean conservative people (Emma, Tim Minear, Adam Baldwin) aren't out there. I especially enjoy how Adam Baldwin has handled the attention his character, Casey, gets for being such a patriot on "Chuck." I remember one interview in particular where the interviewer asks him whether Casey's obvious wearing of a 'support the troops' pin is a subtle way of showing Casey's political leanings. All Adam does is say (I'm paraphrasing) I don't think there's anything wrong with supporting the troops, do you? Wonderful.
CS: "And how dare any of us single Emma out for her comments." I ask back, how dare we not? Is Emma sacrosanct? Would you be defending as strongly someone whose views you do not agree with? If Emma posts publicly, it is fair to debate her views. Fortunately, this has been reasoned and reasonable. I have been on boards where the debate, to use the term loosely, has been incredibly vile. It makes me fear for the future of our country, since it is no longer enough to disagree; today, the tactic is to destroy your opponent- which was very much the political style of one Karl Rove. And now it carries over into our day-to-day discussions.
I find it funny that the same republicans who decry any "Hollywood liberal" voicing a political opinion will defend to the nth degree Chuck Norris speaking out for Mike Huckabee. I am tired of the situationalism. In fact, I hate it on both sides- the republicans are fighting for the same rights that they once stripped from the democrats, now that they are in the minority. Jeez.
As to Emma, not a one of us would give a fig for her views were she not on Buffy. I love her character, but she's a actor "without portfolio" right now and her comments will have virtually no effect on anything. Save for a day long political discussion here.
Posted by unpluggedcrazy: "I'm like Tibbitz...I'm always surprised when I find out that people involved in the arts (especially something like Buffy) have political views like this."
I'm surprised too, but mostly because Hollywood tends to lean left, way, way left. So hearing that someone takes a different point of view is refreshing to me. Sure some of her posts I don't agree with, but others make sense.
As for me, well I'm a libertarian at heart, even though I do recognize the limitations of the truly theoretical limited government that it aspires for. So back to the point of the original article posted about, her endorsement of Ron Paul, I'm glad to hear it since I voted for him for President when he ran the last time. While I find that my preference for limited govt. finds a better home on the republican side of the fence, in general elections I tend to vote third party to make the point that I'm not happy with the limited lesser-of-two-weavels choices our two party system gives us. That and the tendency of the republican nominating system to serve up candidates that are more into interventionist/authoritarian policies, like our current President.
Since it has generated a number of comments, I have to toss in my two cents on the breast feeding in public post. I agree with Emma that asking for a reasonable accomodation, covering up, isn't outrageous. I'm a guy and have no kids myself, so this isn't something I have had to deal with personally. But my friends with infants seem to have worked out how to be discrete yet take care of their child's needs. Some carry a cloth to cover the baby and breast discretely, or they wear a maternity top that allows access while again covering themselves well.
Even if the law confirms their right to breast feed their children, why is asking for some discretion such a problem. Sure it should be done politely, but just asking for consideration of others should not be a crime. We live in a too litigious society already, so bringing lawyers into the mix because you don't like how someone handled the situation is a bit much.
I have to tell you, I thought this thread was going to be a moderator's nightmare . . . happily, and not for the first time, you all have proved me wrong. Sharp, reasonable conversation. Kudos.
But nobody says a bad word about my beloved Dixie Chicks: DaddyCatALSO, you're fired. ;-)
And it seems in the US, it is not accepted to expose your breasts, so you are asked to cover them.
seem slightly contradictory Rogue Slayer. If we don't know then we don't know, we can't say whether it's protected OR illegal.
I just meant that the breastfeeding law doesn't mention anything about the need for covering up or anything like that; however walking around with your breasts exposed is considered 'indecent exposure', so I do know that is illegal(or maybe depends on your state). So does the breastfeeding law exempt a woman from the 'indecent exposure' law? It's quite possible it does.
I 100% agree SoddingNancyTribe - this has been a pretty reasonable and open-minded discussion. Good for everyone. While as Dana has said, much of political discussion has lowered to the level of all-out warfare, at least we can discuss difficult subjects that we disagree on to one degree or another. I am happy to respect the points of view of those I disagree with, if they're sincerely held. I suppose it helps that I was raised by parents who agreed to disagree about the two parties, one tending to vote democratic and the other republican.
As a student of politics I appreciate that this year we have an embarassment of riches. There are almost twenty candidates between the two major parties, and even I'll admit that there are decent ones on each side who could be good Presidents if elected. Sure there are some clunkers and the typical ego trips who shouldn't have bothered filing for the nomination. So look around and research their positions, and you'll probably find someone you can tolerate. If you get involved now, you may even have an impact on getting your favorite nominated.
About the breast-feeding -- apart from the law, which seems to be on the side of public breast-feeding, I look at it this way: I believe it is more difficult for a mother to keep a child quiet in a public place if she can't feed it than for other people in the public place to look at whatever they came there to look at in the first place (presumably not a breast-feeding woman), i.e., their meals, each other, the newspaper, other diners, the view out the window, etc. For that matter, I personally tend to be a lot more offended by a baby screaming, which I can't avoid *hearing,* than by a baby feeding, which I can easily avoid watching (see above).
About seeing conservatism in "Buffy" because it's moral -- er, DaddyCatALSO, are you saying liberals aren't moral? :) I would disagree there.
About Emma Caulfield's political views being at odds with those of her castmates -- Joss Whedon hired her for five seasons of "Buffy" and gave Adam Baldwin a job on the end of "Angel" when "Firefly" went away (and brought him back for "Serenity"). If Joss is happy to work with people who have different political views than his own, then why should the actors who *do* agree with him politically be uncomfortable working with these folks? :)
Doesn't the ninth amendment make it clear that no freedoms shall be denied that aren't specifically prohibited?
If so, then breast feeding in the open should be protected (but of course, that doesn't mean that you won't be unjustly arrested and detained for it without so much as an apology from the police),even if people are offended by it.
I'm just shcoked that we still have such Puritanical views that the actual reason breasts exist upsets people. Why should they be hidden when all they are doing is what they were created for? Each person in that room at one time suckled a breast, and big deal. Why should it be hidden away, as if it is something to be ashamed of? Why is this nation so hung up on sex? Why is it that Joss Whedon had to keep Tara and Willow from kissing until Joyce died, you know?
Personally I agree with you Dana5140, it's no great hardship to just not look if the sight is somehow abhorrent or offensive to you BUT Emma Caulfield's argument about crapping in public view applies here - your argument about its naturalness is just the flipside of that and holds about as much water.
The whole Janet Jackson tempest in a teacup clued me in like nothing else had just how sensitive some segments of the US are to nudity. Kinda funny ;).
(that said, we're "sensitive" about head-butts being shown on TV believe it or not - the UK seems to worry more about violence, the US seems to get more wound up about sex and swearing - so it's all just down to cultural mores)
Where does it stop, saje? Remember the dust-up when diners in an IHOP got angry at two women who gave each other a kiss? So the women were asked to leave? So, taking your argument to its logical extreme, if something offends someone somewhere, we need to accede to that? If a racist walks in and sees 2 blacks and is offended, they should leave? Jews for an anti-semite? There is NO LAW against breast feeding in public; it's completely legal. Crapping in public is not- there are various laws that cover that. But not breast feeding.
Saje, actually, defecating in public in unhygienic and can be smelled by anyone in the immediate vicinity. I do not believe breasts and/or breast milk are inherently unhygienic or give off a detectable odor (unless one is *really* in the vicinity, i.e., the baby). Ironically, the baby is liable to defecate into its diaper while in public, which is not a smell one wants in a restaurant -- that, to me, is a greater danger of offense to the other diners, and yet it goes unmentioned. The other examples of unacceptable public behavior Caulfield cited create more noise/smell/unhygienic conditions and/or take up more space than breast-feeding or any other behavior that would not naturally disturb people nearby but not involved. They really are not analogous to breast-feeding, in my opinion.
Got to admit, comparing breast feeding to defecating did not thrill me much. It is a baby eating...that's all. I get grossed out by the way and what some people eat, so I try not to watch. To me, that is a more apt analogy.
Hmm, now I'm wondering what the stance would be if, say, a woman were breastfeeding her 5 year-old in public(I do personally know of a couple instances where women breastfed that long). Clearly there is no law against it, but would it be considered 'inappropriate' for public consumption, so to speak? Is there a certain age for the child where it is no longer considered 'legal'? Things that make you go 'hmm'...if you're me and bored at work, that is.
I do not know the answer, RS, but the laws are written to allow women to breast feed their "infants" or "babies" in public, and I am not sure that a 5yo fits either of those definitions. But that would be a legalese.
But I think there is a greater point here, well beyond the issue. And it is this: this country is now so divided and so divisive that I think, in general, you can pick the politics of a person once they provide an opinion on just about anything. I will venture to guess that most- I said most, not all- of those who are against breast feeding in public fall on the conservative side of politics, and those for on the liberal side. And pick your issue, I think this is true- abortion, social security reform, universal health care, stem cell research, intelligent design (a canard if ever there was one), religion in the public square- pick it, and by your answer you reveal your politics- in general. And our politicians exploit these differences. I will be caucusing for Obama next week largely because he is the only candidate anywhere who continually and relentlessly talks about uniting, not dividing, hope not fear.
I will venture to guess that most- I said most, not all- of those who are against breast feeding in public fall on the conservative side of politics, and those for on the liberal side.
Or they wanna see some breasts. In which case, they should buy Angel: After the Fall... wah wah wah! Sorry, couldn't resist the urge to tie two semi-offtopic threads together.
ETA: Well now we're caught in a semi-off-topic loop, I hope you're happy with yourself Zeitgeist ;).
Saje, actually, defecating in public in unhygienic and can be smelled by anyone in the immediate vicinity.
Not necessarily. You could have a loo in the middle of the room so that it's basically the same as it is now only right out in front of people, nothing unhygienic about it (so long as you wash your hands - which we all do, right ? ;). And smelling bad isn't illegal either AFAIK - again, it's just arbitrary preference.
My point (and hers) though is there are plenty of things that are natural (and not illegal) that people don't do in public out of consideration for others i.e. being "natural" is no defence, it's still down to arbitrary lines.
(she used crapping to sway people by evoking disgust - standard rhetorical trick and another irksome thing about her posts IMO - but the point is not that crapping and breast-feeding are directly comparable, the point is they're both natural human bodily functions so that simply saying "Breast-feeding is the most natural thing in the world" isn't a justification for doing it in public - saying it's not hurting anyone so why shouldn't the mother be free to do it is IMO but I suppose it's down to whether we put the onus of dealing with the problem on those causing offence or those being offended i.e. either the mother could cover up or the offended people could look away)
So, taking your argument to its logical extreme, if something offends someone somewhere, we need to accede to that?
That's not my argument Dana5140, my argument is merely that pleading "naturalness" doesn't justify a behaviour. You hit the nail though in that it boils down to what people want to see, not what's natural (or even legal as in your women kissing example - i'm assuming that's not against the law in the US ?) i.e. it's about taboos. Your example about racism is germane I think because of course, 50 years ago, in certain parts of America they would have had to leave - what people find acceptable changed (as did the law) and that's no longer the case.
ETA: Well now we're caught in a semi-off-topic loop, I hope you're happy with yourself Zeitgeist ;).
Ah, but its only because you stole the gravitic anomalizer from my TARDIS. On the alleged topic - I think we should try and be aware that not everyone wants us to push everything we are doing in their faces. At some point we have to realize that people are slow to change and while it sucks, its not polite to ram things down people's throats if they are not ready for it. You have to get to tolerance before you have a chance at acceptance, and when you demand acceptance now versus asking for tolerance, you get a backlash reaction. So, hey, wacky idea, try being discrete about your breastfeeding or public displays of affection, unless you are doing it specifically to irk people and geta r eaction. I may be alone in this, but I don't go to the IHoP to see people breastfeeding or making out (no matter what orientation). No sir, I go there to eat crappy food and then feel sick and vaguely uneasy for three days following.
I have always enjoyed the Anya character. Now, I appreciate the actress more. After a lot of research, I knew months ago that I would be voting for Ron Paul.
I don't go to the IHoP to see people breastfeeding or making out
Yes, but where do you think that milk for your pancakes comes from, eh? Breasts! Cow breasts! So you are, in a roundabout way, breastfeeding yourself there, mister! As for the making out...well, making out usually comes before sex, which can lead to the inevitable breastfeeding. It's all a wacky circle of natural functions, right there in your IHOP(or Denny's if you're looking to go the full week feeling sick.)
I will venture to guess that most- I said most, not all- of those who are against breast feeding in public fall on the conservative side of politics, and those for on the liberal side.
Actually, not so much. The women who made up my breastfeeding support groups, message boards and listserves were among the most diverse groups of people I've ever encountered. From crunchy Berkeley vegans to gun-totin', red-meat-eatin', born-again Christian Republicans, we had them all. I'd like to believe that this is because breastfeeding is a public health issue that crosses all socical, political, economic and religious boundaries. The indisputable fact is that on the whole, feeding infants artificial baby milk rather than breastmilk makes our nation's children sicker. A mother who chooses to swim upstream and breastfeed her children deserve to be supported, not harassed.
And as for insistence that nursing mothers cover up with a blanket for the benefit of those who *may* be squeamish, have those of you who hold that view ever actually nursed a baby with a blanket? It's actually a bit of a pain in the ass. Nursing can be tricky enough in those early weeks when you're learning to help your physically helpless little one latch on and stay latched on without having to also hassle with keeping a blanket appropriately situated, not to mention nursing with an older, curious and wriggly baby who does not appreciate having their view of their surroundings obstructed.
Frankly, the idea that these mothers are a bunch of exhibitionists who like showing off their breasts is ridiculous. The vast majority of nursing mothers in this country do so "bottom up" rather than "top down," meaning that all that really gets exposed is maybe a little bit of tummy flab when they lift up their shirt and a little flash of nipple while the baby latches on and off. The rest that you see is no different from any images of breasts that are common in our world. Which suggests that it's not so much the exposure of the breast that people object to as the fact that there is a baby attached to it. Otherwise, you'd likely be seeing people running up to Victoria's Secret ads on bus stops with baby blankets and burp cloths to cover up the renegade titties. ;-)
I accept the public health issue, inasmuch as I am actually a long-time member of the American Public Health Association, where there is a devoted group regardng maternal and well baby health care. But then, APHA is notably liberal in its orientation. :-) But I think my overall point remains germane- we are divided and one can within reason predict a person's politics by their stance on virtually any given issue. And I think this is shame. I teach bioethics, and often the religious has to enter the debate, and for me, for example, I often felt that the discussions offered up by Cardinal Joseph Be
Buffysmglover | December 26, 12:24 CET
The One True b!X | December 26, 12:51 CET
LOL. I have no clue. All I know is that it was on NBC's MEET THE PRESS.
Buffysmglover | December 26, 13:12 CET
JesterInACast | December 26, 16:20 CET
DaddyCatALSO | December 26, 17:25 CET
Pointy | December 26, 17:38 CET
I had not heard that slavery quote, bix. Amazing. And not in the gee, wow, cool way.
I seem to recall that Emma was the most conservative member of the Buffy cast, just as was Adam Baldwin of the Firefly cast.
Chris inVirginia | December 26, 17:39 CET
palehorse | December 26, 18:11 CET
azhippieinoz | December 26, 19:13 CET
Hmm, I'd be interested to hear his reasoning on why 'gradual emancipation' was necessary. I personally think freed slaves would have benefitted from some post-freedom education and aid. I think a lot of them just got cut loose with no means, so that had few options for survival.
Also, it took almost 100 years until we got the CRA, so I think that was gradual enough.
Rogue Slayer | December 26, 20:21 CET
Jim in Buffalo | December 26, 20:29 CET
Anyway, I can see why someone would want to vote for him, and that's really a stretch coming from me as I tend to disagree with every single politician ever. Especially Americans. Especially Republicans. But at least this guy doesn't seem to be invoking the Bible every ten seconds, which puts him way ahead, and he's not for the constitutional ban on gay marriage, which puts him further ahead.
But I'm still not gonna vote for him.
Partially because it's hard to believe this guy is for real, partly because he says he's Republican and partially because I don't know his entire platform...but mostly because I'm not American.
GreatMuppetyOdin | December 26, 20:48 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | December 26, 20:53 CET
Im surprised to hear so many people query her decision. Ron Paul has gained a few million supporters over the past few months... all of which I would deem to be very decent people who only want the best for their country.
Those of you who are basing any judgement upon this one interview should do some of your own research, I think.
Beren77 | December 26, 21:11 CET
And overall, I agree that political links should be considered carefully and posted cautiously, especially in the coming months. I prefer Whedonesque to be a place where I can take a break from the politics and whatnot I encounter in the rest of the web.
jclemens | December 26, 21:32 CET
Speaking of not discussing politics, yesterday a conversation about Barack Obama turned into a heated argument between my brother (democrat) and my uncle-in-law (republican). It ended amicably without any injuries, and nobody the winner. Surprising, given the 5-2 ratio of Reps vs. Dems in the house. It's also quite unusual for my family to debate politics. It opened my eyes to the kind of misinformation out there coming from both sides.
[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2007-12-27 01:53 ]
electricspacegirl | December 26, 21:39 CET
The Ron Paul "revolution" seems to stem mainly from his support of immediate withdrawal from Iraq and just about everywhere where the US has a military presence.....I don't disagree at all.
Mix that in with his honest in your face style and he seems like a really great candidate. I don't know, he's popularized the free market like its handing out gifts to people ("Merry Christmas, Here's healthcare!"; "Katrina victims, here's your rebuilt city for you and not corporate interests!"). Letting the free market (true free market principles) determine prices and our way of life is not going to help anyone. But the way he lays his ideas down is pretty much his appeal. Constantly quoting the constitution and all that. Which is great because it lays down a decent system of checks and balances. However the constitution was created by land owning white men, and the least of their concerns was ending slavery. Economics first, people second. And thats my problem with Ron Paul.
Don't ask me who I'd choose then for president, because frankly its all a game in this country. If you read up on your history you'll understand that the only changes ever to come (women's rite to vote and choose, civil rights, gay rights, 8-hour day, child labor laws, unionization, ending vietnam war), came from social movements and not form presidents or congressmen.
ChosenOne5376 | December 26, 22:33 CET
I'm a tax and spend liberal. I make no apologies.
These aren't King George's taxes that people complain about--Like it or not, it's the cost of living in a modern, capitalist world. It is the cost of keeping a civil society "together" and "civil". Education, health-care, even some (not all) of that "pork barrel" spending are necessary to modern life. They are the infrastructure of life.
People talk about taxes as if they don't benefit from it.
I benefit from my neighbor's kids being well educated-- so they don't grow to be a drag on my property values.
I benefit if the poorest of our society are NOT sick and are GETTING better educational opportunities than my "privilged" neighbors-- So they don't feel the need to come and rob our neighborhood...
There are plenty of "selfish" reasons to be liberal... Not just cause it's the right thing to do.
[snipped]
BTW...Anya didn't start out being all "money" hungry-- just kind of clueless.
Which always made me wonder if Joss, or one of his merry minions, didn't write that in, as an elaborate "in-joke". Emma Caulfied is a smart woman and probably would have gone along with it... irony and all.
Also.. Ron Paul... I'm rootin' for him to be a spoiler.
I don't know a single liberal who is willing to split the vote this time. No one I know is voting "Nader". Only people who would never vote liberal ... SOO..
Go Ron Paul Go!
[ edited by hbojo on 2007-12-26 22:24 ]
[ edited by SoddingNancyTribe on 2007-12-27 00:51 ]
hbojo | December 26, 22:52 CET
I'm going to shower now.
RhaegarTargaryen | December 26, 23:03 CET
Let's be honest, if he was suggesting gradual emancipation starting say around 1834 I'm sure anyone would agree that would have been a better decision. (i'm not familiar with his speech, just pointing that out.)
Seriously, there are a lot of ways for the US slavery issue to have been solved other than the War Between the States and Reconstruction which would have been, in the long run, less damaging to all parties concerned. Some of those "lot" would have involved extending slavery for a generation or so; incalculably hard on that generation and their children but in any number of cases better for their grandchildren and so on.
DaddyCatALSO | December 26, 23:17 CET
Tibbittz | December 27, 00:26 CET
ajay42 | December 27, 01:00 CET
Can you please clarify what you mean by that?
BrewBunny | December 27, 01:23 CET
Yes, that is her page. Check out the photos in her Myspace Photos. She has some that were taken by herself.
Welcome back SoddingNancyTribe!
Buffysmglover | December 27, 01:24 CET
But I can't not like someone who lists Gaius Baltar as a hero. And it looks like, from her tv and movie choices, she's a big nerd. She's got my vote.
Rogue Slayer | December 27, 02:19 CET
And I also feel compelled to ask that folks adhere to the site rules on spelling and punctuation, i.e., that they are good things. Yes, the most pedantic moderator is, indeed, back.
SoddingNancyTribe | December 27, 03:54 CET
palehorse | December 27, 03:55 CET
Yes, that is her page. Check out the photos in her Myspace Photos. She has some that were taken by herself.
I read her other blog entries, and she certainly has some strong opinions now, doesn't she? Must be informed by all those hours spent reading "Jane Austin."
BrewBunny | December 27, 04:05 CET
I feel less manly somehow.
hbojo | December 27, 05:32 CET
Is it just knowing Emma is sort of rightish-of-center makes Anya 's hard-core cpaitalism harder to take?
Or are you judging Emma (and I have to admit you didn't *say* your judgment was negative, but it "almost sounded" that way) just because this is the first you're finding out what party she's registered in?
ETA: hbojo, what do you mean by a "spoiler"? Hoping he loses the Republican nom. and goes Independent?
[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2007-12-27 02:48 ]
DaddyCatALSO | December 27, 05:47 CET
I love this idea. While Anya encouraged Xander to make money to buy her things in season four, I think the real start of the uber-capitalism came from Fury, didn't it, in the Game of Life in "Real Me"? And then her role in the store in Petrie's "No Place Like Home"? Of course, Goddard made her a recovering communist too, in "Selfless".
The cast and crew have always been very comfortable with jokingly mocking differing political views (i.e. right-winger Tim Minear calling Joss "Kerry-boy").
As for the debate on the gradual emancipation, a Buffyverse example that comes to mind is "Chosen": Buffy may have been right in giving the girls freedom, but the decision *has* to be backed up by her working to ease the transition of the girls into their new empowered state, which she is doing in Season Eight. So too are sudden introductions of freedom without any help easing the transition inappropriate.
(By the way, I recently saw, and recommend, Deepa Mehta's film "Earth," about the chaos in India after the British's departure and partitioning; no one disputes that the British should have given India its independence back, but they departed without doing anything to deal with the chaos they left in their wake.)
WilliamTheB | December 27, 06:28 CET
Look closer. There is a lot of toxicity, like the lead paint from China. Texas should be embargoed.
I accept being edited or deleted for this.
dreamlogic | December 27, 07:30 CET
Suzie | December 27, 07:43 CET
angel fan | December 27, 08:01 CET
No, just the politics. Molly Ivins is dead, and I'm not feeling so good myself. She tried to be as cheerful for as long as she could, even trying to put the best face possible on Dubya, but had to give it up. I'm really just talking about the politics. The music and the food should be everywhere. I'm always praying for Taco Cabana to come here.
dreamlogic | December 27, 08:25 CET
Dana5140 | December 27, 09:47 CET
I don't read every post on the forum, as some do not interest me. This one did, I read it, and I enjoyed the commentary. Some may not. To those some--don't read it if it will offend you or reduce the pleasure you find in perusing this site. However, do not limit the rights of others who may find the occasional political post interesting and thought provoking.
pinkie7 | December 27, 10:06 CET
Sorry 'bout that, hbojo: knock back a beer, scratch yourself, and you'll be right as rain again.
SoddingNancyTribe | December 27, 10:39 CET
pinkie7 | December 27, 11:10 CET
Shey | December 27, 12:37 CET
Rowan Hawthorn | December 27, 16:06 CET
People have the impression that because Ron Paul is against the Federal Amendment to ban gay marriage that he is for marriage equality. He's not. He's just against changing the Federal Constitution so that local government can ban gay marriage. In fact, if a local government wanted to ban homosexuality altogether, he supports their power to do that. He even introduced a bill that would give states the power to do just that (and overturn Lawerence v. Texas.)
GrrrlRomeo | December 27, 17:42 CET
dreamlogic | December 27, 18:01 CET
There goes the neighbourhood ;).
I've quite a lot of sympathy for libertarianism as an idea but then Communism doesn't seem too bad on paper either and look how that turned out.
If we're jumping into boxes then i'm socially liberal and fiscally fairly conservative - by European standards that is i.e. i'm still happy enough for a portion of my income to go towards universal, free (at the point of service) health-care and a limited welfare system, I just don't want basic income tax rates set at 55% in order to cover it. Pure libertarianism just seems to miss the failings of lassez faire capitalism to me though (i.e. monopolies, high barriers to entry, large and increasing income gaps etc.) but even a cursory inspection tells you that this guy isn't a pure libertarian, he's just a fairly right-wing Republican with some libertarian leanings (small, non-interventionist government has always been a Republican thing, right ? This guy just wants a smaller government than most).
That said, don't know much about him, at the moment it's not that relevant to me (though if he looks like he may become US President then it certainly will be) but he at least seems to have the courage of his convictions, even if I don't agree with many/most of them (speaking out against farming subsidies - one of the more hypocritical Republican policies it seems to me - when you're a Texas congressman isn't cowardly, whatever else it may be).
(and i've always known Emma Caulfield was a Republican, just like AB and TM, though her blog - assuming that's actually hers - paints her as a bit, err, strident with it. Doesn't put me off Anya though. AB, in fact, is also a Bush fan from what I gather which must make him, like, a Republican squared or something - not to mention an increasing rarity ;)
Saje | December 27, 18:12 CET
The real Anyanka would make them eat all that gold until they burst.
dreamlogic | December 27, 19:12 CET
Heh, yeah I might come across as believing that NOT all politicians say one thing when running then do another when they get in. I feel like i've blown any "die-hard cynic" cred I may have had ;-).
Saje | December 27, 19:20 CET
dreamlogic | December 27, 19:27 CET
DaddyCatALSO | December 27, 19:34 CET
Yeah, faith in the system is hard to maintain dreamlogic. Like whoever it was that said it said, "Democracy is the worst possible form of government, except for all the others" ;).
Saje | December 27, 19:43 CET
dreamlogic | December 27, 19:53 CET
I apologize on behalf of Texas for
... NCLB
... Dubya
... Alberto Gonzalez
... Karl Rove
BUT I accept kudos (on behlaf of Texas AND San Antonio) for
... Amy Acker
... Summer Glau
... Araceli Valdez (Inca Mummy Girl)
and
... Joss Whedon
hmm....
well....
I've adopted Joss on behalf of Texas
hbojo | December 27, 20:02 CET
I'm not really sure why a lot of people on this forum seem to equate Emma Caulfield with Anya. She's not Anya, she's an actress who played her. Making the distinction is important because there's no reason why anyone's personal views should "ruin" your enjoyment of the character. I mean, just because Jayne Cobb is a thief and a robber doesn't mean you should expect the same from Adam Baldwin. I doubt anyone's enjoyment of The Sopranos is ruined because James Gandolfini is NOT a mobster in real life. One's personal picks in politics or religion should not affect your understanding that the actor and the character are entirely separate.
I'm not sure I support Ron Paul, but I am conservative. And I'd like to point out that no one has yet to actually provide a link to the Ron Paul interview in which he supposedly promotes graduated emancipation. I personally can't find it, but I haven't looked too hard since I'm posting this and trying to get out the door to run errands.
YellowBear | December 27, 20:49 CET
bubbletoes | December 27, 21:08 CET
hst3k | December 27, 21:32 CET
Which other candidates (either major party), who had a vote, voted against the Iraq war AND against the "Patriot" Act from the beginning?
Dr. Paul did.
Don't judge any candidate by sound-bytes or one dimension of a three dimensional stance. Some things that he says aren't understood without hearing the rest of his answer. Like decriminalizing marijuana, understanding the damage of the "Inflation Tax", or how our interventionist foreign policies have provoked terrorist attacks on our country.
As with any candidate, we should hear their entire response, and not just something pulled out that somebody chose for us to hear. Not that we should ignore those, just investigate and get the whole story, please.
I'm obviously a Ron Paul supporter. He's the first presidential candidate in my lifetime (and I'm pretty old)that I feel I can enthusiastically support with my money and my vote. I agree with Emma (though not from that particular Tim Russert interview, check him out on the Colbert Report -YouTube it).
I think this candidate is worth the time to research.
Anna von Ovonov | December 27, 22:16 CET
-Just agreein'
Anna von Ovonov | December 27, 22:21 CET
I think that certain captain would be pro-choice and Ron Paul ain't.
And that's a deal breaker for any self-respecting feminist
[ edited by hbojo on 2007-12-27 19:41 ]
hbojo | December 27, 22:30 CET
If you're talking about Tim Minear, I believe he's a Libertarian, not a Republican.
Dr. Paul did.
So did Barack Obama, and he's the one I'm voting for.
I think that certain captain would be pro-choice and Ron Paul ain't.
And that's a deal breaker for any self-respecting feminist
That's my policy. Lay off my rights, and I mean all of them. I just can't trust anyone who wants to take away a right. That's a dangerous slope, and I don't want to end up living in a fascist country.
electricspacegirl | December 27, 22:59 CET
Dana5140 | December 27, 23:05 CET
Dr. Paul did.
So did Barack Obama, and he's the one I'm voting for.
Obama didn't have a vote at the time of the Iraq or original Patriot Act voting periods, to my knowledge.
[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2007-12-27 20:25 ]
Rogue Slayer | December 27, 23:16 CET
On that Meet the Press interview, (approx. min. 6.30 of the youtube feature above) Dr. Paul does explain his stance on how the country should have simply phased out slavery rather than go to war. He lays it at Lincoln's feet as an attempt to expand federal power.
If my memory serves, the country *was* trying to phase out slavery for decades and the southern states got upset enough about it to secede from the country before Lincoln took office. Terms like "Bloody Kansas" came out of that attempt to phase out slavery. The Confederate States of America was formed before Lincoln even became president. The war happened to keep to try to put the country back together.
If Dr. Paul wants to argue whether there was another way for Lincoln to get the south to return to the USA, fine, but it is a bit ingenuous to suggest that by the time Lincoln came into office all he would have had to do was offer to buy the slaves freedom or that the war was the country's first attempt to end slavery. For that matter it is a bit ingenuous to act like the war was all Lincoln's doing. When he arrived in office the southern states had already formed a separate government and were denying access to federal forts in their territory. They also started shooting at ships and attacked Fort Sumter within the first three months of Lincoln's presidency.
That was not a one sided war in any sense. There is plenty of responsibility to go around. One thing for sure, the south did not secede because they were looking for a federal buy-out scheme.
I get suspicious of candidates who rewrite and dumb-down history for their own purposes.
newcj | December 27, 23:18 CET
To borrow an insight applied to someone much better known than Malcolm Reynolds, what a person sees in Mal often says far more about them than it does about Mal.
I'd caution against continuing this thread further into the political realm. Mentioning abortion is one step away from Godwin's law. Politeness and our social contract restrain me from further comment.
jclemens | December 27, 23:24 CET
hst3k | December 27, 23:41 CET
What made the question of slavery in the U.S. different than other countries and capable of leading to a civil war was the inherent economic dichotomy: a southern agrarian economy that was dependent on slave labor and a northern industrial economy that wasn't. Slavery wasn't just a way of life in the south-- it was the entire economy. Most of the southern states saw any threat to slavery, such as Lincoln's election, as a threat to their very survival. Hence a war to settle the issue.
Sunfire | December 28, 00:29 CET
And given that Emma is a Republican, and this is primary s eason, I'd see it as bad taste to endorse candidates in other parties yet *grin.
DaddyCatALSO | December 28, 00:29 CET
SugarFalls | December 28, 00:32 CET
That said, I think on matters as political party affiliation where neither party is a dictatorship, and we're operating under free choice, I don't think it's really fair to say you are angry, disappointed, or ANYTHING with an actor when he or she has beliefs, just like all of us do. I am personally a Republican, but would never stop watching an actor's work that I enjoy, if that person were Democratic or Libertarian. Their political affiliation does not affect my enjoyment of their roles because I feel that none of the major three parties are BAD or corrupt. I wouldn't support Communism, because that IS bad and corrupt in many ways.
I will, however, enjoy an actor's work less, if they make decisions that I think are morally apprehensible in their own lives. I'm not going to watch another Ben Affleck movie, not because Ben Affleck is a Democrat, but because I don't tend to enjoy his choice in roles. But if he were to advocate something so obviously morally apprehensible as to that the majority of the people, regardless of politics, would regard as offensive (say, if he were to suggest that women were second-class and shouldn't vote) then not only would I have problems watching his movies, but I feel that Sydney Bristow would exact revenge and then I might be able to watch Good Will Hunting again.
YellowBear | December 28, 01:17 CET
Well IIRC he was referred to as Republican and a Bush supporter in 2004 electricspacegirl (it's mentioned a few times on this thread about the Kerry fundraiser) by people like Alyson (who seems to have real world contact with him) though obviously that may well be because he didn't have the opportunity to vote libertarian (and he may no longer support Bush - right thinking people change their minds about stuff like that all the time, whichever "side" of the arbitrary left/right divide they happen to sit on).
Of course I will avoid a performer because of "addytood" so perhaps I'm not consistent here.
Old ground to some extent (Orson Scott Card casts a long shadow ;) but though I don't really care about an actor's politics, if I found out for instance that an actor felt that AIDS was God's vengeance on gays for being evil, that'd give me pause. Some knowledge just permanently colours your view of a person and if you can completely forget that when watching them act then I think you've an uncommon knack for compartmentalisation (that's the big 'you' BTW, not any actual 'you's on this thread ;).
Saje | December 28, 01:43 CET
Saje;If an example is useful, I strongly objected to the Actual choice of words the lead singe fromt he Dixie Chicks used toe xpress her feeling sbaout Iraq while in copncert but I had no problem with ehr talking baout it. But when the fiddler from the group said she was glad they had recorded an album that had maved away form country format because she didn't want their songs on the same stations with a couple harmless fun songs she proceeded to bash, then I said good riddance.
DaddyCatALSO | December 28, 02:06 CET
Dana5140 | December 28, 02:07 CET
Don Imus is the perfect example. I don't care how much money he's donated to various African-American groups or even if he goes and adopts eight children from Africa, what he said about the women's basketball team was deeply offensive and unforgiveable to me. I've never listened to Don Imus, but even if he was a musician or an actor instead of a radio host, I'd extend the same courtesy I'd extend to anyone else who makes comments such as those - I wouldn't support them. But it has nothing to do with whether Don Imus is Democrat or Republican.
YellowBear | December 28, 02:40 CET
Is it just knowing Emma is sort of rightish-of-center makes Anya 's hard-core capitalism harder to take?
Or are you judging Emma (and I have to admit you didn't *say* your judgment was negative, but it "almost sounded" that way) just because this is the first you're finding out what party she's registered in?
- DaddyCatALSO
Well, I'm always surprised to find out someone in the arts, and especially someone who's been involved in such an arguably progressive project as Buffy would support ideas/political parties that are inherently regressive. But it wasn't her political affiliation that I found so off-putting; rather it was this blog post:
It’s only natural
Maybe you haven't heard about the the breast feeding sit-ins that some crazy "activists" are pushing for, but I have. Sigh. Recently a mother was asked to cover up while breast feeding her baby while "dining" at an Applebees restaurant in Arizona. In an attempt to squash the discomfort of the other patrons, the manager asked if she could cover her breast while in the dining room. She explained she didn't have a blanket and then made it clear she was offended by his request and soon made her story national news. It is her "right" to breast feed in public, whenever and wherever she pleases.
Soon to follow were accusations of discrimination and the demands for apologies. An argument this woman and other Lactivists have made is that breast feeding is natural and therefor should be excepted and therefor catered to by all. They haven't actually said they should be catered to but really, that's what they want.
But you know breast feeding IS natural. And you know what else is natural? Sex. Should couples be allowed to shag in between meals if their desire overcomes them? What about relieving one's bladder or bowels? That's certainly natural, so should we forego using bathrooms as well? Hell while we're at it, being naked is the most natural thing in the world so should nudists be allowed to dine in the buff while sampling the all you can salad bar? The answer to these questions is no.
- Emma Caulfield
I think it's patently absurd that we have, as a culture, distanced ourselves so far from public breastfeeding that it's thought of by anyone as vulgar. It'll be hard now for me to watch Caulfield as Anya and not be reminded of how strongly I disagree with her views.
Not that this will actually ruin Anya for me, I was being dramatic...
Tibbittz | December 28, 03:33 CET
Sorry, Sunfire, but I think you misspelt "new nation." As much as we like to ignore it, the War for Southern Independence had a lot of economic and military similarities with the American Revolutionary War: Smaller, more agrarian section seceeds from larger, more populous industrial nation, which proceeds to launch a war of aggression to reconqueor the rebellious provinces.
Of course, we know what the moral issues and military outcomes were in each war, but the similarities are all-so-often overlooked. Fort Sumter was sovereign soil of the Confederate States of America, which it had de facto nationalized as part of secession. For the USA to attempt to resuppy it, rather than withdrawing its troops, was the initial act of war.
Morally ambiguous stories are part of what makes Firefly and Angel (and, to a lesser extent, Buffy) so interesting. Funny thing is, if you look beyond the dumbed-down versions we got in grade school, there's plenty of moral ambiguity right smack in the middle of history.
jclemens | December 28, 03:41 CET
I won't even touch the post denouncing atheists who have the audacity to advocate for a separation of church and state ...
BrewBunny | December 28, 04:02 CET
The dispute with Applebee’s began June 14. Ryan chose a booth in the back of the restaurant away from other customers. When her baby, Michael, got hungry, she began to nurse him discreetly, she said.
But a waitress came over and said that if she wanted to breast-feed, she had to cover the baby with a blanket. Ryan said it was so hot that she didn’t have a blanket. The waitress then repeated her request. Ryan said she then asked to see the manager and handed him a copy of the 2006 law that prohibits any interference with a woman breast-feeding her baby in public.
The manager said he knew about the law but a customer had complained about indecent exposure, so she had to cover the baby with a blanket.
Just as her food arrived, Ryan left to nurse her baby in her car.
Her lawyer wrote a letter to Thomas and King, the company that operates Central Kentucky’s Applebee’s. They got no response. After a second letter, a Thomas and King lawyer said the restaurant chain would consider keeping blankets in the restaurant so that breast-feeding women could cover themselves.
“That’s like telling Rosa Parks she still had to sit in the back of the bus, but we’ll give her a blanket to make her more comfortable,” Ryan said.
Yep, that's a really "crazy" woman there who obviously is just looking for the public to cater to her.
BrewBunny | December 28, 04:09 CET
I'm always amazed that it's apparently just the 'nippular' area that is offensive, given what passes for bathing suits and bikinis these days.
That said, is it unreasonable to ask someone to cover up their breast, regardless of why it is out? I've seen tons of women breastfeeding in public, and every one of them covered themselves with a blanket.
I mean, if we're going to say you can expose your breast to breastfeed, then why can I not expose my breast for the fun of it? Then you get into a bit of hairy territory with equal rights and whatnot.
Mind you, I think people should be able to go around nude if they want, and that we are a far too puritanical society, but just going along with society...it should be even-steven, if you ask me.
Ryan said she then asked to see the manager and handed him a copy of the 2006 law that prohibits any interference with a woman breast-feeding her baby in public.
Wow, that kind of sounds like a woman who was aiming to either start a lawsuit or prove a point. Who walks around with laws in their purse??
After a second letter, a Thomas and King lawyer said the restaurant chain would consider keeping blankets in the restaurant so that breast-feeding women could cover themselves.
Good for them. I don't agree with making people breastfeed in the restroom, because after all, that doesn't seem very hygenic. But asking them to cover with, and even providing, a blanket. Seems fair enough. Clearly some people find expose breasts offensive, and if you're a business trying to keep everyone happy, it seems a fair compromise. You're allowing the mother to feed her child naturally, and you're allowing the other patrons to not feel...whatever they feel by seeing a boob. Offended. Disgusted. Whatever negative emotions boobs evoke.
[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2007-12-28 01:20 ]
Rogue Slayer | December 28, 04:20 CET
That post, as well as the breast feeding post, also made me realize just how much I disagree with Emma's politics and beliefs. But they also made me think that she may just be an even better actress than I gave her credit for... she sold Anya completely, even if the character was used in service of messages she may not believe in herself. I always knew Emma had excellent comedic timing, but now, I am pretty convinced she is a great actress. And if she came over to my house for dinner, we'd have a nice boring discussion about the weather :)
igj | December 28, 04:25 CET
But you know, it gives me new respect for the cast and crew of Buffy, that they co-existed (I think peacefully?) with Emma. Some of the DVD commentary would suggest they really liked her. I think that says a lot, that they saw the woman, not her wacky politics.
hst3k | December 28, 04:28 CET
A woman who is smart enough to know what her rights are and who is experienced enough to know that a large portion of the public is not similarly informed.
Signed,
Another woman who once carried a copy of her state's right to breastfeed law with her. ;-)
BrewBunny | December 28, 04:28 CET
Well, men can already expose their breasts for the fun of it (though we might not get served in bars or supermarkets) so the equal rights thing doesn't worry me ;).
The thing is Rogue Slayer, some people find exposed hair offensive, they still don't have the right (in Western countries) to ask people that don't share their beliefs to cover their heads. And surely it could be she'd had trouble before and so got a copy of the law to cover herself (ba dum dum ;) ?
Just read the "Let's make a big church/state pie cos the founding fathers she praises so highly really didn't want the two kept separate (all evidence to the contrary)" post. She likes her totally unsubstantiated, ill-considered rants doesn't she ? Love it, everyone should have a hobby ;).
Saje | December 28, 04:38 CET
And in Ontario, 10 years ago, it was decided that women could go topless where they pleased. More or less.
Lioness | December 28, 04:42 CET
Is that it continues.. that more and more people voice opinions about Caulfield's politics.
On other boards that I read (where testosterone is king...her opinions would not even raise an eyebrow).
Regardless, of the political stripes in here-- it seems that Whedonites just seem to be more politically interesting (eventhough you conservatives are wrong....we still love you).
Emma's opinions breastfeeding opinions aren't exactly mainstream... but I have to admit that they need to be confronted when appropriate.
I don't believe that it's right to just let other's "be" with what are patently wrong ideas. It's good to confront bad ideas.
Otherwise, bad ideas gain currency.
I'm still apalled by the fact that every American is not outraged at our involvement in a war based on false premises.
Regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum... the fact that we are in Iraq and there were NO WMDs should make us ashamed. It's not a matter of left and right... but of right and wrong.
[ edited by hbojo on 2007-12-28 01:44 ]
hbojo | December 28, 04:43 CET
Dana5140; Sorry, I was taking your comment a bit more broadly than you meant it. I'm the last person to ever comment on another's decision to avoid spending money :-).
hbojo; The main probklem with Iraq is we're there now and just withdrawing isn't good way to deal with that emssy rel;aity.
Tibbitz;Just for the sake of argument, I could say the Buffyverse has a strong conservative element it it also, mainly because it has a fairly specific moral code running thru it and most prime-time shows, well, don't.
jclemens;Britain wasn't all that industrialized at the time; the economic asepcts were very different in the two wars.
hst3k; Emma and Tonyw ere the only actors from the casts invited to Aly and Alexis's wedding. Thsoe 4 plus AMy Acker, Nicky, and Charisma, plus their various spousen* are all fairly close socially last I heard.
*not a typo, that's how I spell and say it :-)
[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2007-12-28 01:47 ]
DaddyCatALSO | December 28, 04:45 CET
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a mother may
breastfeed her child in any location, public or private, except the
private home or residence of another, where the mother and the child
are otherwise authorized to be present.
Now, of course, I've never argued anyone's right to breastfeed in public, but whether if 'covering up' is called for. The law doesn't really address it. And I wonder what the consensus would be if the mother were in a school. But like I said, it's never been an issue in my experience, as all breastfeeding women I've seen cover up in public, and from those I've talked to, they don't particularly like having their breast exposed to the public anyway.
A woman who is smart enough to know what her rights are and who is experienced enough to know that a large portion of the public is not similarly informed.
Signed,
Another woman who once carried a copy of her state's right to breastfeed law with her. ;-)
So this woman probably had prior experiences of breastfeeding in public, without cover, and people asking her to cover? Not speaking to the legality of it, but I'd just bring a blanket in the future if that happened. But then again, I'm not big on fighting for rights that don't really have much consequence, just because it's a right. I mean, breastfeeding in public is a right. Yes, fight for that. But being asked to cover up is not taking that right away from you. I mean, I'm sure she had a spit-up rag with her, if she is an experience mother. I wonder if her main problem was them asking her to cover up, or her impression that she had to leave. If they had provided her with a blanket, would she have refused it on principle? Didn't sound that way, sounded like she simply didn't have one. And did the restaurant insist she leave? I guess I just don't have enough facts to really get a full picture of the situation.
The thing is Rogue Slayer, some people find exposed hair offensive, they still don't have the right (in Western countries) to ask people that don't share their beliefs to cover their heads.
Yes, but in countries where it is against the accepted 'law' to expose your hair, they certainly can ask you to cover your head. And it seems in the US, it is not accepted to expose your breasts, so you are asked to cover them.
I would guess this woman carried a copy of the law in her purse because this was not the first time she had been told she couldn't breast feed her child in public and she was willing to take a stance.
I guess my point is, from the info we have, she wasn't told she can't breast feed in public. She was asked to cover up, as it was apparently offending other patrons.
Rogue Slayer | December 28, 04:49 CET
You know, for some reason, a lot of people in this world have made it a point to add in the words "in spite of" as if politics should be a yardstick for us to compare each other to. I don't care what your politics are, if you're a bad person who hates others, I'm not going to respect you.I don't feel as if anyone from the cast "put up with" or simply "co-existed" with Emma. It's not as if she had leprosy, for heaven's sake. That's one of the problems with this world, that instead of seeing people for being people, common decent human beings, we see red hat or blue hat, and we think that people with beliefs that are different than ours can't possibly get along with "normal" folks because obviously, Emma's politics are CRAZY.
I personally wouldn't like to breastfeed in public, thankyouverymuch. Forgive me for being extremely puritanical, but I think it'd just be a little distracting to the other restaurant-goers, if it was obvious. This woman wasn't being obvious, which is fine, that I have no problem with, but I don't think Emma should be judged or written off for expressing her opinion, which I'm sure is the same as many others.
And how dare any of us single Emma out for her comments. It's not as if any of us ever read one article on the internet and make opinions without digging through four or five other ones to confirm the details, right? I'm sure all of us do it a lot, even if we try not to. Her comments regarding the breastfeeding woman were not "she's a wretched human being" but simply that just because it is natural, perhaps it should not be done everywhere. That's a sensible line of logic, IMO.
YellowBear | December 28, 04:53 CET
and
And it seems in the US, it is not accepted to expose your breasts, so you are asked to cover them.
seem slightly contradictory Rogue Slayer. If we don't know then we don't know, we can't say whether it's protected OR illegal.
I kind of agree though that it makes sense to pick your battles and (the odd occasion apart, usually in the morning or pre-coffee ;) i'm not really the sort to fight over the small things either. But then I guess everyone has different priorities on "issues".
And how dare any of us single Emma out for her comments.
We dare like ... this ;). Seriously, she posted comments in public, that means the public get to scrutinise them (just as all our comments on here are open to scrutiny and, within the rules of the site and the mods' judgement, being challenged/ridiculed). And anyway, I very much doubt she's so thin skinned to be bothered by it. Her logic's not "insane and happenstance" but at the same time it just boils down to what some find offensive and what others don't so in this instance, logic doesn't really help us (unless it's actually been ruled illegal, which seems murky).
Saje | December 28, 05:02 CET
YellowBear | December 28, 05:10 CET
In general, the (few) posts i've read have been ad hominem (in a general sense), ranty and sometimes nonsensical. That's fine, she's absolutely entitled to express herself any way she likes and on one level it's quite entertaining. Doesn't mean we have to just accept it without comment if it rubs us up the wrong way though (anymore than Ms Caulfield has to).
Saje | December 28, 05:26 CET
I don't think republicans are bad people, and I think extremist democrats are just as reprehensible as extremist republicans. (Seriously, Tim Robbins is uber-talented, but I want to punch him in the face every time he starts talking about politics despite the fact that I agree with most of his beliefs). And if I want to, I can say that this disappoints me a little...and it does. I mean, she's as fully entitled to her beliefs as I am mine, but I always associate Buffy with liberalism.
Plus, her blog posts just seem rather insane, at least by my definition of insanity. And she's got a Rudy Giuliani thing on her MySpace (yet also tons of Bono admiration, which boggles my mind). Ugh.
This doesn't change Buffy or the Anya character for me, though. She's a very talented actress, and I will continue to enjoy her work. I mean, when I found out that Trey Parker and Matt Stone were registered republicans I nearly had a heart attack, but South Park continues to be one of the best shows on television (or at least it will if this damned strike ever comes to an end). Though I must say, their views seem way closer to mine than Emma's, and also sensible.
UnpluggedCrazy | December 28, 05:34 CET
YellowBear | December 28, 06:05 CET
I find it funny that the same republicans who decry any "Hollywood liberal" voicing a political opinion will defend to the nth degree Chuck Norris speaking out for Mike Huckabee. I am tired of the situationalism. In fact, I hate it on both sides- the republicans are fighting for the same rights that they once stripped from the democrats, now that they are in the minority. Jeez.
As to Emma, not a one of us would give a fig for her views were she not on Buffy. I love her character, but she's a actor "without portfolio" right now and her comments will have virtually no effect on anything. Save for a day long political discussion here.
Dana5140 | December 28, 06:13 CET
I'm surprised too, but mostly because Hollywood tends to lean left, way, way left. So hearing that someone takes a different point of view is refreshing to me. Sure some of her posts I don't agree with, but others make sense.
As for me, well I'm a libertarian at heart, even though I do recognize the limitations of the truly theoretical limited government that it aspires for. So back to the point of the original article posted about, her endorsement of Ron Paul, I'm glad to hear it since I voted for him for President when he ran the last time. While I find that my preference for limited govt. finds a better home on the republican side of the fence, in general elections I tend to vote third party to make the point that I'm not happy with the limited lesser-of-two-weavels choices our two party system gives us. That and the tendency of the republican nominating system to serve up candidates that are more into interventionist/authoritarian policies, like our current President.
Kyrax | December 28, 06:20 CET
Even if the law confirms their right to breast feed their children, why is asking for some discretion such a problem. Sure it should be done politely, but just asking for consideration of others should not be a crime. We live in a too litigious society already, so bringing lawyers into the mix because you don't like how someone handled the situation is a bit much.
Kyrax | December 28, 06:31 CET
But nobody says a bad word about my beloved Dixie Chicks: DaddyCatALSO, you're fired. ;-)
SoddingNancyTribe | December 28, 07:14 CET
and
And it seems in the US, it is not accepted to expose your breasts, so you are asked to cover them.
seem slightly contradictory Rogue Slayer. If we don't know then we don't know, we can't say whether it's protected OR illegal.
I just meant that the breastfeeding law doesn't mention anything about the need for covering up or anything like that; however walking around with your breasts exposed is considered 'indecent exposure', so I do know that is illegal(or maybe depends on your state). So does the breastfeeding law exempt a woman from the 'indecent exposure' law? It's quite possible it does.
Rogue Slayer | December 28, 08:10 CET
As a student of politics I appreciate that this year we have an embarassment of riches. There are almost twenty candidates between the two major parties, and even I'll admit that there are decent ones on each side who could be good Presidents if elected. Sure there are some clunkers and the typical ego trips who shouldn't have bothered filing for the nomination. So look around and research their positions, and you'll probably find someone you can tolerate. If you get involved now, you may even have an impact on getting your favorite nominated.
Kyrax | December 28, 08:35 CET
About seeing conservatism in "Buffy" because it's moral -- er, DaddyCatALSO, are you saying liberals aren't moral? :) I would disagree there.
About Emma Caulfield's political views being at odds with those of her castmates -- Joss Whedon hired her for five seasons of "Buffy" and gave Adam Baldwin a job on the end of "Angel" when "Firefly" went away (and brought him back for "Serenity"). If Joss is happy to work with people who have different political views than his own, then why should the actors who *do* agree with him politically be uncomfortable working with these folks? :)
[ edited by Shapenew on 2007-12-28 06:17 ]
[ edited by Shapenew on 2007-12-28 16:46 ]
Shapenew | December 28, 08:53 CET
Burp cloths = boobie burqas.
[ edited by BrewBunny on 2007-12-28 06:03 ]
BrewBunny | December 28, 09:03 CET
Doesn't the ninth amendment make it clear that no freedoms shall be denied that aren't specifically prohibited?
If so, then breast feeding in the open should be protected (but of course, that doesn't mean that you won't be unjustly arrested and detained for it without so much as an apology from the police),even if people are offended by it.
Anna von Ovonov | December 28, 09:47 CET
Dana5140 | December 28, 17:35 CET
The whole Janet Jackson tempest in a teacup clued me in like nothing else had just how sensitive some segments of the US are to nudity. Kinda funny ;).
(that said, we're "sensitive" about head-butts being shown on TV believe it or not - the UK seems to worry more about violence, the US seems to get more wound up about sex and swearing - so it's all just down to cultural mores)
Saje | December 28, 18:06 CET
Dana5140 | December 28, 19:50 CET
Shapenew | December 28, 19:55 CET
newcj | December 28, 20:06 CET
Rogue Slayer | December 28, 20:31 CET
But I think there is a greater point here, well beyond the issue. And it is this: this country is now so divided and so divisive that I think, in general, you can pick the politics of a person once they provide an opinion on just about anything. I will venture to guess that most- I said most, not all- of those who are against breast feeding in public fall on the conservative side of politics, and those for on the liberal side. And pick your issue, I think this is true- abortion, social security reform, universal health care, stem cell research, intelligent design (a canard if ever there was one), religion in the public square- pick it, and by your answer you reveal your politics- in general. And our politicians exploit these differences. I will be caucusing for Obama next week largely because he is the only candidate anywhere who continually and relentlessly talks about uniting, not dividing, hope not fear.
Dana5140 | December 28, 20:57 CET
Or they wanna see some breasts. In which case, they should buy Angel: After the Fall... wah wah wah! Sorry, couldn't resist the urge to tie two semi-offtopic threads together.
zeitgeist | December 28, 21:12 CET
Saje, actually, defecating in public in unhygienic and can be smelled by anyone in the immediate vicinity.
Not necessarily. You could have a loo in the middle of the room so that it's basically the same as it is now only right out in front of people, nothing unhygienic about it (so long as you wash your hands - which we all do, right ? ;). And smelling bad isn't illegal either AFAIK - again, it's just arbitrary preference.
My point (and hers) though is there are plenty of things that are natural (and not illegal) that people don't do in public out of consideration for others i.e. being "natural" is no defence, it's still down to arbitrary lines.
(she used crapping to sway people by evoking disgust - standard rhetorical trick and another irksome thing about her posts IMO - but the point is not that crapping and breast-feeding are directly comparable, the point is they're both natural human bodily functions so that simply saying "Breast-feeding is the most natural thing in the world" isn't a justification for doing it in public - saying it's not hurting anyone so why shouldn't the mother be free to do it is IMO but I suppose it's down to whether we put the onus of dealing with the problem on those causing offence or those being offended i.e. either the mother could cover up or the offended people could look away)
So, taking your argument to its logical extreme, if something offends someone somewhere, we need to accede to that?
That's not my argument Dana5140, my argument is merely that pleading "naturalness" doesn't justify a behaviour. You hit the nail though in that it boils down to what people want to see, not what's natural (or even legal as in your women kissing example - i'm assuming that's not against the law in the US ?) i.e. it's about taboos. Your example about racism is germane I think because of course, 50 years ago, in certain parts of America they would have had to leave - what people find acceptable changed (as did the law) and that's no longer the case.
[ edited by Saje on 2007-12-28 18:16 ]
Saje | December 28, 21:14 CET
Ah, but its only because you stole the gravitic anomalizer from my TARDIS. On the alleged topic - I think we should try and be aware that not everyone wants us to push everything we are doing in their faces. At some point we have to realize that people are slow to change and while it sucks, its not polite to ram things down people's throats if they are not ready for it. You have to get to tolerance before you have a chance at acceptance, and when you demand acceptance now versus asking for tolerance, you get a backlash reaction. So, hey, wacky idea, try being discrete about your breastfeeding or public displays of affection, unless you are doing it specifically to irk people and geta r eaction. I may be alone in this, but I don't go to the IHoP to see people breastfeeding or making out (no matter what orientation). No sir, I go there to eat crappy food and then feel sick and vaguely uneasy for three days following.
zeitgeist | December 28, 21:41 CET
¡Ya basta!
or..
¡Orale vato!
hbojo | December 28, 22:06 CET
Old Fan | December 28, 22:09 CET
Yes, but where do you think that milk for your pancakes comes from, eh? Breasts! Cow breasts! So you are, in a roundabout way, breastfeeding yourself there, mister! As for the making out...well, making out usually comes before sex, which can lead to the inevitable breastfeeding. It's all a wacky circle of natural functions, right there in your IHOP(or Denny's if you're looking to go the full week feeling sick.)
Rogue Slayer | December 28, 22:30 CET
Actually, not so much. The women who made up my breastfeeding support groups, message boards and listserves were among the most diverse groups of people I've ever encountered. From crunchy Berkeley vegans to gun-totin', red-meat-eatin', born-again Christian Republicans, we had them all. I'd like to believe that this is because breastfeeding is a public health issue that crosses all socical, political, economic and religious boundaries. The indisputable fact is that on the whole, feeding infants artificial baby milk rather than breastmilk makes our nation's children sicker. A mother who chooses to swim upstream and breastfeed her children deserve to be supported, not harassed.
And as for insistence that nursing mothers cover up with a blanket for the benefit of those who *may* be squeamish, have those of you who hold that view ever actually nursed a baby with a blanket? It's actually a bit of a pain in the ass. Nursing can be tricky enough in those early weeks when you're learning to help your physically helpless little one latch on and stay latched on without having to also hassle with keeping a blanket appropriately situated, not to mention nursing with an older, curious and wriggly baby who does not appreciate having their view of their surroundings obstructed.
Frankly, the idea that these mothers are a bunch of exhibitionists who like showing off their breasts is ridiculous. The vast majority of nursing mothers in this country do so "bottom up" rather than "top down," meaning that all that really gets exposed is maybe a little bit of tummy flab when they lift up their shirt and a little flash of nipple while the baby latches on and off. The rest that you see is no different from any images of breasts that are common in our world. Which suggests that it's not so much the exposure of the breast that people object to as the fact that there is a baby attached to it. Otherwise, you'd likely be seeing people running up to Victoria's Secret ads on bus stops with baby blankets and burp cloths to cover up the renegade titties. ;-)
BrewBunny | December 28, 22:50 CET