Whedonesque Mobile : Comments on 14763 : IGN's Holiday Buyer's Guide 2007.

Apparently, they couldn't plug Angel without taking a dig at Buffy. It comes across as unfortunately bitchy.

But Angel IS better than Buffy. :)

I gotta go with Succatash on this one. :)

You two are NUTS!

I liked season 7 of Buffy but I didn't like season 3 or 4 of Angel and on the whole, I liked Buffy much better. So I guess to each his own.

luvspike | November 17, 00:45 CET

I always find it unusual that certain seasons of Buffy are occasionally singled out as being inferior to others, by so many different critics. Season seven has be referred to as a triumphant return to form and yet there are also views like this, which often suggest that seasons six and seven were inferior to the earlier seasons.

I think it's pretty interesting that there is no consensus on any single season being poor, and it perhaps reflects the fact that each season was quite different in many ways, particularly from season four on, and that everyone reacted to them in different ways. And I definitely don't share the view that Buffy went out on a poor final season.

Razor | November 17, 01:10 CET

Nor do I. Nor do I buy into the view that Angel was a better show. I tried, but I could never really get interested in it. Mileage varies, I guess.

Rowan Hawthorn | November 17, 01:35 CET

I felt Angel S3 was mediocre at best, boring as heck at worst (Angel's worst season, imo) and S4 had some major flaws (but was still an entertaining ride).

As for Buffy, the only season I'd consider poor is the first, and even that has charm as a redeeming value. I consider S6 to be very fascinating, gutsy, and to have a "flawed brilliance" about it; It may be my favorite season. S7 has some large flaws and gets a little sloppy in places, but I've never, ever understood the hate for it. There's a whole lot in the '+' column for S7 that always gets overshadowed by the overwhelming complaints. I just don't get it.

As whole I prefer Buffy and its characters a lot more than Angel, but that's just me.

mikejer | November 17, 01:51 CET

Guess which Whedon show made the list?

Parenthood!

Simon | November 17, 02:07 CET

Yeah, I have to disagree with the tone and content of this. I happily bought all the BtVS seasons, but Ats never really thrilled me that much. I was almost as disappointed with S4 of Ats as other people are of S7 of BtVS. I eventually did get all of Ats, and S4 was better on second viewing, but it still did not really work for me. Even so, I would not care for a review of BtVS that felt a need to take pot shots at Ats. They are two separate shows and should be judged as such.

newcj | November 17, 02:36 CET

I have a 5-disk DVD player and there is always one Buffy and one Angel disk loaded up. I love both shows, and try to catch at least one episode of each every week. Usually on Tuesday night just for tradition's sake. Okay, so I'm old and set in my ways.

You kids get off my lawn!

kmb99 | November 17, 02:40 CET

Parenthood!

I don't get it.

Storyteller | November 17, 02:53 CET

Just one?

Pointy | November 17, 02:58 CET

Oh, I quite loved all seasons of Angel - though admittedly, most of season 4 and the first half of season 1 (ironically enough, seeing as I liked Doyle) a little less so than the rest. I also love all of Buffy, but the weaknesses, to my mind, are far bigger. There's a handful of less-than-ideal episodes in season 1, season 2 is very varying with the strongest episodes being among the show's best and the weakest being among its worst, season 4 has a lot of strong individual episodes but the season plot as a whole fails to captivate, and season 7 struggles with much of the same as season 4 though to a far smaller extent. So on the whole, no question about it, my favourite of the two is "Angel" - but then again, that's what I saw first. So I guess nostalgia might have made my opinion forever biased.

All that being said, season 7 of Buffy was quite satisfying and I disagree with the way they speak of it in this list. It's just that, on the whole, while loving both shows to pieces, I find "Angel" to be ever so slightly better than "Buffy".

(edited to make clearer that I don't think season 7 is particularily inferior to earlier stuff, like for instance season 4)

[ edited by Loki on 2007-11-17 00:09 ]

Loki | November 17, 03:00 CET

Edit: computer-hickup, sorry.

[ edited by Loki on 2007-11-17 00:06 ]

Loki | November 17, 03:00 CET

A dis at Buffy? For shame!

I never hated any season of either Buffy or Angel, and season seven of Buffy might not rank in the top of my fave list (that's reserved for seasons 2&6 depending on my mood) that season had more than two+final episodes that were - are good! A lot. On first viewing some might dislike its stuffiness (AKA too much of the SITs and not enough closure for the originals) but when looking through it again those fade in the background (not completely) and you notice the great episodes. I don't think there is a single utterly crappy episode in both Angel and Buffy, it's a myth, there's always more than one line that is just perfect. The problem with seven -I think- is that many people had a lot of expectations (I know I have) and the rush to finish and to wrap things up didn't work as well for a seven season long show as it did for Angel.

I also wasn't fond of all of Angel - season 4 still gets on my nerves at times even when I rewatch it. My allegiance will always be to Buffy first even though strangely I like ALL of the Angel cast - and I can't say the same about two or three in Buffy. I just HAD to buy all the DVDs as they came out each season. As for Angel I only bought the complete seasons boxset last year.

Mirage | November 17, 03:03 CET

Angel or Buffy, I have more problem with Heroes being on the list. Even the worst Angel or Buffy season is so much better than that show (and it's their best season so far - yikes!). Oh well... I do poo-poo the Buffy potshot, though. I like Angel, but I love Buffy.

Sunnycide | November 17, 03:18 CET

A discussion about which is better? Really? Well there is something new.

TamaraC | November 17, 03:33 CET

I started watching Angel first and loved it, couldn't care less for Buffy. But then it came the last episode of Angel and I wanted more! Since the only way to keep feeding my mind of Joss was to watch Buffy I gave it a try. Starting at season 5 I feel in love with Spike and I kept watching...now at days I like Buffy better. It might be because my superhero complex found its match...maybe...or something to do with Spike...
But I still think both are amazing.
*I'm tempted to bring Firefly up. Next time...

Patty | November 17, 04:16 CET

Aw, I like Heroes. My allegiance will always be first and foremost, to Buffy. It's what I grew up with. And by grew up I meant that I was in high school when they were in high school. It worked well. I gave a silent 'whoo' to the X-Files set on there. I know it's blasphemy, but the X-Files trumps them all.

YellowBear | November 17, 04:51 CET

I love Angel, but it was a slow thing because the show was so badly served by British terrestrial TV. Buffy has my heart, though. Not a bad season in either of them.

And there was that little thing about a spaceship too...

Gill | November 17, 05:54 CET

Good grief, every season of both shows was superb, some more than others, obviously.

To denigrate the last season of Buffy is, to my mind, petty beyond the telling of it. My wife and I think it brilliantly brought to a close 7 years of storytelling.

Not Fade Away is equal to anything Buffy produced, which is to say, literature, art, and brilliance.

We totally love both shows. There are no "bad" seasons, even if there are ones we prefer to others. "Bad" Buffy or Angel is so much better than, well, anything else on TV.

One man's opinion (and his wife's, too.)

"She" on Angel: worst episode ever. Still worth watching.

Chris inVirginia | November 17, 06:43 CET

I watched both series on TV from Buffy episode one to Not Fade Away. They are both great. I have 2 complete sets of both (it's a security issue), so I won't be buying the "complete" sets. But if we are voting - I loved Angel more. As someone else said, Angel had no characters that annoyed me, but Buffy certainly did. And Angel had - well, Angel. My favorite character ever! Surprise!

And I loved the episode "She", though I would certainly not say it was the best ever. I would hate to have to pick a best or worst episode for either series. But I watch the less favored episodes, also. I just keep working my way through them episode by episode, season by season, in order.

TexLuvsAngel | November 17, 07:41 CET

You are all wrong, FIREFLY was the better show! But of course I already own all of both Buffy and Angel, and watch them all the time (currently indoctrinating a friend who will have to buy her own DVDs soon).

embers | November 17, 08:33 CET

Them is fighting words... fighting as defined as slapping and hair pulling ala Xander and Harmony...

Love BtVS, it owns my heart. My favorite work of fiction ever, even when I acknowledge that (like everything else) it isn't 100% perfect. I like AtS a lot, and have seasons 2, 3 and 5, but can't put it in the same artistic range as BtVS because it never personally touched me. But dude, it's the Whedonverse. Both shows are great!

As is Firefly. Really, this Joss fellow is ridiculously talented.

dottikin | November 17, 13:43 CET

If you ask me, they're all be perfect stocking stuffers' for the holidays.

Did I mention how much I love this room?

Madhatter | November 17, 13:56 CET

There is no bad here, and I include Firefly.
Well, except "Go Fish" on BtS and about a third of AtS season4. But that's out of twelve seasons total for AtS/BtS plus fifteen eps of Firefly. What other series could you say that about, much less what other three series combined.
But BtS still owns my heart.:)

Shey | November 17, 15:35 CET

Wow, this site has me pretty ticked. And in my opinion, Season Four of AtS as a whole was just nutz, and I think a lot of it is because of Charisma becoming pregnant and everything else and the idea for the season having to be changed. However, on an episode-by-episode look, it had mostly great episodes. Weird right? I am weird, lets move on...

And how about this: In the 2006 - 2007 season, Friday Night Lights was perhaps the most compelling and involving drama on network television. Give me a break!

Buffysmglover | November 17, 16:46 CET

Buffysmglover:

And how about this: In the 2006 - 2007 season, Friday Night Lights was perhaps the most compelling and involving drama on network television. Give me a break!

Well, you have to remember that, for the 2006-2007 season, compelling and involving drama and network television really don't belong in the same sentence, so that's not saying much...

Rowan Hawthorn | November 17, 18:12 CET

Rowan Hawthorn, true. I'm not a watcher of FNL, but my favorite drama in the 2006-7 season was on premium cable Dexter, and I enjoyed three other summer short series, all on cable. The Closer (TNT) is a breezy, procedural funness; Mad Men (AMC) is a fascinating and visually gorgeous; Damages (FX) is an engrossing and fabulously acted legal thriller. I adore Glenn Close.

Even though I enjoyed Heroes last season, network TV is just not bringing compelling drama to the small screen these days. I think comedies are doing well -- 30 Rock, The Office, Chuck -- but dramas, not so much.

dottikin | November 17, 18:46 CET

MadMen is really good. I only watched the first 7 or 8 episodes before I needed a very long break from them (mainly because I wanted to see how fast I could get my aunt to finish watching Buffy) and hopefully the first season will be on DVD. I prefer not watching a show at all until I get it on DVD unless its a sitcom. Because there are so many of those its hard to know which one to purchase. Which Is why I watched EVERY episode of S1 of HIMYM when they aired (pretty disappointing to watch season one on DVD and find there werent episodes I'd missed)and then not watch any of Season Two. I knew I liked it, and I was eager to purchase the DVD.

Did I just get WAY off=topic?

Buffysmglover | November 17, 18:51 CET

I have to disagree with two of the points that article makes. One, that Season Seven is Buffy's worst. I consider Seven to be a very large improvement over the lackluster Season Five and the at times simply horrible Season Six. And two, Angel totally had a bad season: the first season is nigh unwatchable a lot of the times. There are a few good episodes scattered throughout, and without the season, Angel would seem like a hypocrite for claiming to help the helpless, as he pretty much stops doing that after that first season. But after watching it the first time, there's little reason to go back and see anything other than the last few episodes. And sweet jeebus, She mind-numbingly horrible.

[ edited by alpha5099 on 2007-11-17 16:34 ]

alpha5099 | November 17, 19:34 CET

hmm... Season Seven had some predictable episodes...
but was not unwatchable and certainly not the worst.

My vote was always with most scenes with Riley.
The "Initiative" arc always seemed hokey to me... but it did yield two very cool episodes--Primeval and Restless.

But Season 7... eh.. it was occassionally predictable, which none of the other seasons were..in that ... it was flawed but not the worst... I can't bring myself to call ANY Buffy season ...bad.

Now the other seasons were nearly flawless...
Season 5 and 6 were hands down TV masterpieces..

hbojo | November 17, 21:07 CET

Ats and BtVS had such separate identities that comparing the two is kind of pointless, imo.
I do see the point of comparing seasons within the shows, though, and have to agree with mikejer that Season 3 of Angel is pretty poor, with the exception of 'Fredless'. So much so that in 10 years of Whedon fandom, I've only watched the eps 2 or 3 times.
As for the Buffy seasons, yes, season 1 is the weakest but that's more about the show finding its feet than a lack of quality.

lone fashionable wolf | November 17, 23:35 CET

I thought Angel season 3 had really strong character dynamics. As the season developed I realized Wesley is the coolest character EVER.

Succatash | November 18, 00:32 CET

What Succatash said. Season 3 of AtS was probably my favorite. Partly because of the addition of Amy Acker but mainly because of Wesley's arc.

Shey | November 19, 12:20 CET

November 16 2007