These storylines are very intriguing, and Brian Lynch's Spike books promise great things.

Pointy | October 12, 20:55 CET

PLEASE BRING CORDY BACK OR I WILL CRY.

I'd prefer Cordy over Wes.

Although its easier to bring Wesley back because I imagine all of them were under contract with Wolfram and Hart and they probably wanted to punish him just as much as everyone else (Kind of how they brought Lilah back.) so its not too far-fetched to say he's joined them in hell.

But BRING CORDY BACK. PLEASE...

It really sucks that Spike gets to gets to have his "moment of happiness" and Angel doesn't. Angel deserves it far more than Spike. They need to fix that as well. Give the guy a break.

Bruce | October 12, 21:05 CET

*sigh*

Haunt | October 12, 21:42 CET

Brian, Haunt needs another story.

Seriously, it sounds wonderful and seems to have everything I could hope for in it. Is it November yet?

TamaraC | October 12, 21:45 CET

As still excited for this comic as I am and as much as I LOVE Gunn, I'm kind of disappointed to see that he survived. His (seemingly VERY imminent) death was one of the things that mattered most to me in the finale. I know that's an odd thing to say but, it seemed like the best way for Gunn to atone for the role he played in Fred's death; Going out fighting the good fight. I thought it was a beautiful thing to do with the character. For me, it was Gunn's 'hero' moment.

Dan Corson | October 12, 22:00 CET

Since it seems like my hesitancy about this series seems to be perceived as my having a problem with Mr. Lynch, let me clear something up.

I'd be dubious about some of the plot ideas mentioned even if (perhaps especially if) Joss himself were writing them. I've been vocal in the past about my belief that even our Dark and Purple Lord has made some poor story decisions. Of course this kind of thing is all down to personal taste and opinion, so I can't say definitively that anything Joss (or Brian) has written is actually BAD, or WRONG... only that I personally didn't enjoy it, or in my opinion it was bad or wrong. That's my right as a fan. Doesn't mean anyone has to listen to me. No one ever does, so it's all good I suppose.

Having said all that, I'm dubious about Spike embracing his baser insticts again. I mean I get it, I do... Spike is still a vampire, soul or no. And he's had many, many years to develop a taste for hedonism. It's in no way unrealistic, or out of character really... I guess. My problem is that I'd just rather see this particular aspect of the character overcome. We've seen this kind of thing before, so I'd prefer to see some new things out of him. How many times has he had some epiphany, made the decision to fight on the side of the angels? I'm not saying it's out of character for him to do what he will apparently be doing... just that it's not terribly original or anything remotely like new territory. It will be a far more interesting story the day that Spike actually makes a moral stance and manages to stick with it for more than an episode.

And I'm hoping that it's significant when the article mentions a certain character is still around, not that he/she is still ALIVE.

Brian, this isn't about you buddy. I'm desperately hoping that you blow me away with all this. I'd be just as skeptical if this series were being written entire by Joss. Perhaps Season Five hadn't originally been intended as the series finale, but that's ultimately how it had to play out. And I LOVED what that end was. If the network hadn't forced Joss' hand like that, and the show continued on as he apparently intended without interruption, than that would be one thing. But we were given what was meant to be the final word on the series and the characters, and I felt it was the absolute perfect ending. So continuing from there is... awkward.

Haunt | October 12, 22:14 CET

That sounds so great. I am dying to have this in my hands!

I dont care what anyone else says - Im sooo happy this is continuing and cant wait to read it!

angeliclestat | October 12, 22:18 CET

And Haunt. Not to get personal. But this means a *huge* amount to many people. Myself included.We know how you feel,because you dont hide it:) But could you just leave those of us who are happy with every bit of After the Fall news enjoy it.(apart from the whole freedom of speech thing- maybe out of respect for those that do), I know your're not happy with it. But maybe you've said it enough now.

angeliclestat | October 12, 22:27 CET

I still have great faith in Mr Lynch, but the 'Boobs and Bikinis" line slightly worries me.

I do hope that it turns out to be more to Spikes storyline then meets the eye. Considering Lynch's superb track record with writing this character I can't see him going 'all retro' on us. *wibble*

sueworld2003 | October 12, 22:35 CET

Fair enough I suppose. Of course I'm not sure why that argument wouldn't work in the reverse... but seeing as I'm in the minority it appears I've less of a foot to stand on, eh?

How about this? I'll continue to express my opinions, both positive (and yes I DO have those from time to time ;) and negative. You do the same. And we'll agree that neither of us will save or ruin anything for the other. You can like something that I dislike, and vice versa. Doesn't mean either one of us has to have our opinions invalidated by the other.

My feelings on this are based on an unremitting love of the origin material, namely Angel. I am passionately supportive of the series as aired (and for the record I've had to suffer through the opposite of this particular discussion when I was loving Season Four and practically everyone else could do nothing but bash it... but that's neither here nor there). I love the characters as they developed through 110 episodes. I'm a little overprotective of them and that whole epxperience I guess. Sorry if that makes it difficult for you to enjoy the upcoming continuation. That's not my intention.

Haunt | October 12, 22:37 CET

Maybe I shouldnt have typed what I did Haunt. I didnt mean to say that you shouldnt express yourself, or your opinions.
You dont *have* to like it, of course. And I dont expect everyone to. Its just that when I saw your "*sigh*" comment above, I just thought 'Was that really needed'. There was no 'I didnt like X Y and Z' Just '*sigh*. Thats all that bugged me.

And I am as big a fan of the series as you could find (go on I challenge you;)), so you dont have to explain your love of it to me. But if you 'really' dont like the continuation, or the idea of it, then I just couldnt understand why you continue to post in the topics. Let me make myself clear. Im not telling anyone not to. God, no! Its just the unfailing negativity from you on the topic grated. But dont worry you wont spoil it for me, and dont let anythng I say affect you! Friends?

PS I adore season 4:)

angeliclestat | October 12, 22:47 CET

PS I adore season 4:)

Well see? That's all you had to say. ;)

Of course we're friends, we're Angel fans.

Haunt | October 12, 23:00 CET

Haunt, I have a similar trepidation to yours about picking up from what to me (and to you, and many others) was the perfect series finale. Just perfect. But here's something that I comfort myself with: as best I can recall, despite the writing of Not Fade Away as a series finale, early talks and discussions were already underway between Joss and some of his writers about continuing the Angelverse in a series of TV movies. So even though the dreams of a season six were dashed, and even though Not Fade Away was written as a series finale, the intention even then was to hopefully continue the story. This works for me, because as I see it, Not Fade Away triumphs most of all as a series statement, not necessarily the final shutting of a door.

Just food for thought.

I can't wait to see what Lynch does. I am very hopeful. It must be tough to be writing the continuation of such a beloved series. I can't imagine the pressure.

Oh, and I loved Season 4, too, despite the fact that it contained perhaps the single worst line in the Whedonverse, "Give Mama some sugar." (EvilCordy to the Beast, as she draws him in for a kiss.) Yikes.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2007-10-12 20:26 ]

phlebotinin | October 12, 23:08 CET

Angel Season 4 was awesome, its's Joss' favorite so it can't be too bad. But to the topic at hand. Mr. Lynch is going to have to work really hard for me to not be disappointed in Gunn's story. Cause the guy should be dead. Now if he's a vamp I am all for it. And please gawd no Cordy. The story is done and finished, wrapped up in a pretty bow. Seriously, there is absolutely no reason for her to be anything other than a apparition or the like in this story. I honestly think "You're Welcome" was the perfect end to her story. But as I always say writers should never ever listen to fanboys/girls because you can never make them happy. Just tell your story as well as you can and hope for the best.

theMidnighter | October 12, 23:14 CET

Very nice to hear the Season Four love, guys. Thanks.

I agree that Lynch has his work cut out for him. Not only because of pissy little fanboys like myself (who will possibly never be happy no matter what he does), but also because of the perhaps more reasonable majority of fans who seriously love the show and just want a fitting continuation. Guys like me are probably easy to ignore. Our very passion tends to make us come off as one note and impossible to please, therefore not really worth listening to. The others, the "reasonable" ones, are the ones that will ultimately determine if the story is a success or not.

Also, I agree that Cordy really should just be left alone at this point. But I guess it's worth pointing out that this story apparently takes LA to Hell, literally. And if we're in Hell, and not the earthly plane, then some writers might decide that we could see any number of apparitions, ghosts, shapeshifters, reanimated corpses, etc. Cordy could always come back as a hellion taking her form. Or her corpse reanimated/possessed. She could be an angelic presence trying to guide Angel and the others back home.

None of those possibilities appeal to me. I'd prefer to see her just left alone. "You're Welcome" was a truly fitting end to her story. Any attempt to change/alter/continue that story will really just feel like forced pandering... in my opinion, of course.

Likewise Wesley. While far and away my favorite character, I'm severely torn over if and how he should come back. My own fanfic-like fantasies had him appearing only to Illyria, either as a ghost haunting her and only her or as her own guilty conscience... we never really know. But since I doubt that's how this will happen in ATF, I'm left to imagine similar scenarios to those listed above for Cordy. And I'd be even more disappointed in Wesley being brought back in any of those ways than I would be with Cordelia. If he can't be brought back in a completely unique, fitting, touching, mindblowing and totally "believable" way than I say just please leave him dead.

And finally, Gunn. Again with the agreement. He's dead. That's it. I find it extremely hard to imagine a scenario wherein he survived (as a living, breathing human) given what we saw and heard in the last scenes of "Not Fade Away". And Daburcor is dead right in saying that his end in that alley was a fitting redemption for the role he played in Fred's death. (No, I don't think his time in Suburbia-Hell really covers it.)

Haunt | October 12, 23:37 CET

This sounds very promising, especially that we'll see Wes again (regretting reading it 'cause of that, though, that should really've been a surprise during the read), but Gunn... Gunn surviving that battle just detracts from "Not Fade Away" in my book. They can't have it both ways, it can't both be the biggest scariest challenge they've ever faced AND have everyone, including the seriously wounded human, survive it. So Gunn surviving (except, of course, as a vampire, which would rock) is definitely the first thing I've heard of this comic that gives me serious pause. I hope Lynch'll prove me wrong, but as theMidnighter says; that'll take a lot.

Then again, I'm guessing they won't ressurect Wes, and if we see Gunn in a similar - dead - capacity as Wes, there's no logical reason for me to mind, so I won't. Gunn as dead or undead's okay, but alive Gunn I really hope they don't do.

And dear gods, no, no Cordy. Her arc's finished, and in such a lovely way, that really shouldn't be messed with.

Edit: Ah, I see I should've waited a few moments to see Haunt's post and then just gone "Ditto", shouldn't I? ^^

[ edited by Loki on 2007-10-12 20:42 ]

Loki | October 12, 23:38 CET

I too am a bit wary about Gunn. But t'aint me to judge, since it's not out yet.

In any case, I'm psyched.

UnpluggedCrazy | October 12, 23:39 CET

Does anyone know for sure whether the "one shot" issues that have been planned are included in the 12 issues count, or are they additional to that? I've seen this question raised but not answered. I'm hoping that we get 12 issues *plus* additional one shots. Greedy am I.

phlebotinin | October 12, 23:53 CET

I commented on this interview over at IDW's forums at www.idwpublishing.com, if you wanna see what I think. Just a heads up, some of the stuff in the interview was a bit off. Some of it wasn't, but stuff like Spike's arc...well, it's covered over at the idw site.

And Haunt, haven't read this thread yet, but don't worry about being wary. I would be too, as a fan of the series I wouldn't want anyone messing it up. And you've always expressed yourself much nicer than most people who have problems with it, like a little gentleman. That said when I read this thread maybe you call me a booger or something and then I will take this back and you'll be sorry.

Brian Lynch | October 13, 00:09 CET

Haunt Loki theMidnighter: As far as I'll always be concerned "You're Welcome" was just the ME writers on autopilot; "Oh look we can kill off another favorite character, that's what we do here."

And as for Gunn, well Illyria isn't a pghysician so why should her evaluation of Gunn's condition have been correct?

Just thinking (and I might be sublimating soemthing else) but even tho I've been describing myself as a casual viewer/reader but I was still happy to hear about the "canonical continuations." But, with my income $8 a mo. or even $3 is a consdieration and after this summary I'm getting disheartened.

[ edited by DaddyCatALSO on 2007-10-12 21:17 ]

DaddyCatALSO | October 13, 00:09 CET

That's a shame, DaddyCatALSO.

Brian Lynch | October 13, 00:19 CET

DaddyCatALSO:
Illyria's evalutation is of no consequence, it's the entire scenario, the mere fact that he WAS wounded, and a "mere human", and how it detracts from the entire point of creating the most dire situation ever for the gang if they all survive. It's not that I'd like to see Gunn die, it's just that it'll kill off a lot of the realistic feel of the world for me if a mostly normal human being who's already wounded can survive that.


As for "You're Welcome", I do not agree in any way. It was one of those episodes which beautifully shows exactly what season 5 did best - wrap up loose ends from season 4 while having very pretty and sentimental throwbacks to season 1, creating a sense (for me, at least) of fullness, of it all being a whole. Episodes like, say, "You're Welcome" and "Origin", to me, lifted up and improved the earlier parts of the show that had been left hanging and feeling somewhat lacking, and they did it by both moving the show forward and referencing and bringing back things like Holland Manners, Doyle, Lindsey, Wesley's issues with his dad, etc - I loved that. To me, season 5 isn't just the best the show ever was, it's also a season that improves a lot of the earlier seasons just by being there. And "You're Welcome" is a big part of that.

Loki | October 13, 00:25 CET

Thanks for the 'heads up' Brian. I feel more reassured now. :)

sueworld2003 | October 13, 00:31 CET

Yeah, me too, thanks! Still worried about Gunn, but I guess I'll wait and hope the comment about some of the characters said to be back not being back after all would refer to him...

Loki | October 13, 00:33 CET

That said when I read this thread maybe you call me a booger or something and then I will take this back and you'll be sorry.

Fortunately I edited out my "booger" references before you got here, so I think I'm safe. ;)

Seriously though, dude, I think you're a great writer and I have nothing but respect for you. I've enjoyed the stuff of yours I've read prior to this and really have no reason to suspect that, should the story fail it will be due to you being a hack or anything. Clearly you're a fan of the series and the characters, just like the rest of us. I'm worried that the fans aren't the best people to be writing the continuing lives of these characters, though. The stories I've written for them in my own head are obviously perfect for ME, just as those written inside angeliclestat's head may be perfect for him. Yours are likely perfect for you, naturally. The concern is when one of us fans are in a position for our own fanfic to become canon. There will never come a day when the entire fan community will agree on what the story should be, so dissent like this is natural.

I'm sorry that some people are so upset by my "negativity" that they need to post about it elsewhere... but then that's the joy of free speech, which I'm all for.

So long story short (too late) -- peace, homey. ;)

Haunt | October 13, 00:37 CET

I personally am not conscerned. Brian is an amazing writer and Joss is in complete creative control. He hasn't let us down yet when in complete control (other than maybe Buffy: Season One). I'm just happy that Buffy, Angel, Firefly and Fray are going to continue for at least a few more years.

[ edited by JesusSavedIn01 on 2007-10-12 21:43 ]

JesusSavedIn01 | October 13, 00:43 CET

I hear you, man. And no hatred here, you're a-okay!

Brian Lynch | October 13, 00:46 CET

Brian;I really didn't think you'd be back this soon and I really didn't mean to cause any unpleasant feelings in the pros. (Especially since I'm probably lying;in my whole life,a dd up things I've given up on principle to the things I've just lost interest in and you'd have fingers left.) Plus I'll never reallly turn my back on Joss Whedon; I like his thinking, it's a lot like mine.
The Wes thing actually isn't a big deal with me, I've rationalized that long ago. I just get worried when Harmony is mentioned. She's second to Tara as my fvaorite character in the 'verse and I know there's no good reason why she's even suvived this long so ...I worry *grin.

Loki: I take your point on Gunn, I just keep rememebering that, appearances to the contrary, Joss apparently meant him to suvive all along.
And not criticizing the plot developemnts in "YOu're Welcome.) (keep in mind I haven't seen any of these episodes yet.) Just the ending was 1-not really logical in terms of the internal mehcanics of the Buffyverse. Cordelia had been developed into a very effective and useful character and yet she's not going to be used from that point and it strikes me TPTB would be more frugal than that. 2-not really creative because Dr. Joss and His Bunche had already proven they know how to bump off lang-term characters; why not do soemthing different,s end her off as an independent operative? But thanks and ir eally don't want to kill the thread here.

DaddyCatALSO | October 13, 01:08 CET

Spoileriffic!
Though, I'm reserving my judgement until I actually HAVE the comic in my hands. (And Haunt, fangurls are just as invested in the story, too!)

Looking back, I was VERY vocal about Angel leaving Buffy in the first place. Than I was vocal about Doyle's death. Than I ranted about Dawn, the Potentials, Evil Cordy, Lorne-as-Murderer,Spike dying on Buffy, Spike going to LA, Wes dying, Fred dying and BOTH shows ending.

And THAT all worked out okay in the end. And, after all, didn't someone once say words to the effect of- "Trust the tale, not the teller?"

missb | October 13, 03:01 CET

And I also thank you for the reassurance about the "boobs and bikini" stuff. As a newbie comic reader just starting to enjoy the art form, it wouldn't take much for me to lose interest in "season 6".

Reddygirl | October 13, 05:23 CET

I thank you for the reassurance that it is still Angel's story, because he was the only reason I watched S1-5, and the only reason that I would pick up After the Fall.

white wings | October 13, 09:08 CET

I love all of the characters on Angel, and am looking forward to seeing how they're doing, but ultimately I'm with you white wings ... if it wasn't Angel's story ... I wouldn't be interested.

resa | October 13, 09:40 CET

Awesome, i can't wait to see Spike and Illyria's arc(s) unfold.
For me, the verse was always alot bigger then just Angel, there are many main-characters who still have amazing stories to tell.

Vergil | October 13, 09:49 CET

I thank you for the reassurance that it is still Angel's story, because he was the only reason I watched S1-5, and the only reason that I would pick up After the Fall.

Actually I'm certain I heard somewhere that one of the issues will take place in the "Antis" Hell Dimension where non evil Spike really is the center of the universe. They wanted to use the "Haven" Hell Dimension but they don't have the rights to Buffy :)

I guess I'm taking a wait and see approach but to be honest, I'll overlook just about anything (although bringing Wes back would be a hard pill to swallow) as long as they don't ruin Spike.

iowagirl | October 13, 16:02 CET

iowagirl; umm, "Antis" and "Haven"? Are those from previous comics? Because those aren't familiar to me. (I've seen BtvS thru S-6 and Angel thru S-3 and a few odd bits since, but except for a very few items -the Willow-Tara peices, the Chaos bleeeds teaser, one other thing, and the Ugly Little Monsters omni- I wasn't reading the comics before the S-8 material)

DaddyCatALSO | October 13, 20:17 CET

DaddyCatALSO: it's coded wank and if I see anymore of it there will be deleted postings or worse.

Simon | October 13, 20:23 CET

Simon Thanks, and I agree on people who push the envelope on board rules. altho there's that part of me that just ebcomes more curious. Maybe I'lla sk soembody on another board.

DaddyCatALSO | October 13, 20:35 CET

I can see Spike wanting to try to be the kind of character he used to be, but I don't think it will make him happy for long. He has come so far in becoming a better man, that I can't see him backsliding that way. I never liked that when he died on Buffy and then came back to life on Angel, they seemed to forget that. Like during the big fight with Angel to have him say something to the effect of "Yah, she must have been thinking of you every time I put it to her", that is just not something he would say about Buffy. He loved her deeply and that statement just did not feel right coming from him at this point in his life. Even though he deserves time off and have some fun, I hope he gets over it and continues on his journey of being a better man. And better yet, I hope that Buffy finds out he is still alive cuz it isn't right that she doesn't know. Just please be good to my Spike!! Thanks.

luvspike | October 13, 21:52 CET

Without getting anyone into trouble (particularly me ;) can someone tell me what "coded wank" is?

[ edited by Haunt on 2007-10-13 19:20 ]

Haunt | October 13, 22:18 CET

Email me about it and I'll tell you as I really don't want this thread getting any further derailed.

Simon | October 14, 00:35 CET

I'm glad Brian Lynch was able to reassure everyone. It really is like walking through a mine field where the mines are so sensitive that no one needs to step on them. They explode not only from the vibrations of you just being in the field but from the vibrations of other people who walked through years before. One of the cool things I've noticed is that both Joss and BL seem to enjoy the danger of the whole thing. More power to them.

newcj | October 14, 02:46 CET

resa, I confess to having a soft spot for a rogue demon hunter from the days when he was a stuffy, hide-bound, fairly incompetent Watcher. It was because of the moment in Buffy when he had Angel helpless at his feet in a net and did not order his death. That was out of the character he thought he wanted to be. I'd love to learn that Illyria had been premature in her announcement of his death. For that matter, I liked the new, improved Connor as much as I'd loathed the old whining, duplicitous version. I dunno that I'd invest time in stories that were simply about them, but I'd be glad to see them have major story arcs along with Angel. Fred's dead. Illyria is useful to move stories, as are the others. They may also provide amusement. But ultimately I want to know what is affecting Angel, hurting him, helping him, and if he is coming any closer to finding a balance that makes his existence tolerable (but not perfectly happy).

white wings | October 14, 08:48 CET

Where is the Spangel? After all the talk about Angel and Spike being perfect for each other I hope that will not be left out. And please correct the Sire thing! Angelus was the ONLY one to sire William!!
(Since it was stated that Angel was Spike's Sire in School Hard and In the dark. Drusilla was only "a sometime paramour of Spike's" in Lie To Me,which makes that canon, fans do prefer Angel as Spike's Sire and ignore
the unfortunate and totally 'jumping the shark' change that happened later.)

[ edited by angelusiredspike on 2007-10-14 13:20 ]

angelusiredspike | October 14, 09:06 CET

Angel did have a history with little blondes, didn't he? But perhaps he finds a hot new friend.

white wings | October 14, 09:28 CET

"And please correct the Sire thing! Angelus was the ONLY one to sire William!!
(Since it was stated that Angel was Spike's Sire in School Hard and In the dark. Drusilla was only "a sometime paramour of Spike's" in Lie To Me,which makes that canon, fans do prefer Angel as Spike's Sire and ignore
the unfortunate and totally 'jumping the shark' change that happened later.)"

No, a lot of fans do see it as canon, Dru is Spike's sire, that whole situation was cleared in "Destiny", and it made sense. Dru sired him but Angelus turned him into a monster(by being his mentor in the beginning), not that many of his teachings stuck. Spike was too much of a rebel and found his own brand of evil which was far different from Angelus's style.
Penn was Angelus's true childe, he was turned and mentored by him.

Vergil | October 14, 18:35 CET

Pleaaassseee don't kill my beloved Harmony!!! My life would be ruined.

Can't wait for this! The anticipation is killing me!

hitnrun017 | October 14, 19:33 CET

I'm very confused about thwta I've read of the Angelus being Spike's sire thing. It was Dru!

Buffysmglover | October 14, 21:28 CET

Angel is Spike's step-sire. Dru is Spike's real sire. There it's all settled.

Simon | October 14, 21:32 CET

Simon, that's what I thought. Just making sure.

Buffysmglover | October 14, 23:48 CET

Grand-sire.

toast | October 15, 01:58 CET

:-D

I always liked the way that Dru was Spike's physical sire but Angelus stepped in as his abusive father figure who created the monster he became, which ties in with the traditional use of the term sire as the male parent.

newcj | October 15, 05:01 CET

So that, unlike most vampires, he was the product of a two parent family. With a live-in granny.

toast | October 15, 16:40 CET