I thought we were to use RaggedyEdge's thread for Buffy S8 issue #7 discussion? I thought what we really need is a new thread to discuss the 4th and final issue of Spike: Shadow Puppets!

embers | October 03, 22:31 CET

The way it's working it out with the Buffy season 8 comics is that there's a headsup thread on the day that the new Buffy comic comes out so people can go "cool I better head to my local comic book shop" and speculate about the issue etc without fear of getting spoiled.

Then later on in the day, a review thread (like this one) gets posted so people can discuss the issue in great depth and those who haven't got the issue yet know to avoid it as there will be spoilers. It's a bit like what we did for the Serenity screenings that happened way before the movie went on general release.



If there's a good review out there worth linking to, then that's would make a relevant discussion thread for that issue.

Simon | October 03, 22:45 CET

Poor Faith! I'm mad at Giles for the pickle he's put her in. And it seems like he's misunderstood the threat. If they got rid of Roden, Genevieve might go back to being icky and useless, rather than dangerous. If they get rid of Genevieve, and not Roden, he could try the same thing again with another slayer. Or some other plot.

dreamlogic | October 03, 23:38 CET

What's with people blaming Giles? I don't get it. He's acting on the info the augurs gave him. And he's not making Faith do anything. She knows what she signed on for.
Gigi is clearly a psychopath. She cares more about her shirt than about the life of a girl, for crying out loud.

I didn't find this book quite as kick-ass as the first one, but it was still cool. There was a severe lack of Giles content, but I don't mind much this time, 'cause he's on the cover. *looks at pretty cover* *hee*

The last page is funny if you've ever read bad Buffy fanfic. You know, the kind where "Buffy" is short for "Elizabeth."

lorelei_frolick | October 04, 00:00 CET

Quick thoughts:
* Gorgeous cover by Jo Chen (as usual)--- why aren't these images for sale as posters?
* Gigantic Dawn if funny...but... where is this idea headed? If it is headed anywhere or was just something fun to the mix...
* Love the twist of Faith and Gigi "connecting" via cigarettes, and the irony of Gigi possibly having much more in common with Faith than Faith has with the other slayers & Buffy.
* I wasn't sure with the first part of the story, but now, I can't help but think:
"Wow, I would have loved to have seen this as a tv movie".

But it's cool that the next best thing is comix!

harvey chin | October 04, 00:22 CET

If "I am The Council" Giles had bothered to consult with his old co-conspirator Robin Woods, or paid attention to Faith's iffy mental state while he was training her, he might have known that she's not capable of being an assassin anymore. That's why the plan wasn't executed. If it had been executed, it would have at best postponed the threat.

dreamlogic | October 04, 00:24 CET

I hate to do it, I wanted to have hope here, but I'm gonna have to go against Giles on this one. No matter what happens, Faith's gonna come out of this one screwed (literally, not figuratively).

On the other hand, digged the Amy Winehouse reference. ;)

deepgirl187 | October 04, 00:36 CET

Okay, this is the first issue to really click for me, as in I can hear Faith's voice in my head saying and thinking those lines. Course, having her say them in an English accent is another matter.

And maybe the line about being a dick to every guy who's nice to her tells us something about what went wrong with Robin.

One issue though. The word "Jewess" is archaic. I have never, in my life heard any other Jew, male or female refer to someone as a "Jewess." The relevant word is "Jew", pure and simple. I would not expect Willow to call herself a Jewess any more than she would refer to herself as an Americaness.

[ edited by barboo on 2007-10-03 21:55 ]

barboo | October 04, 00:54 CET

barboo, if you look at a lot of the language the kids in Buffy The Vampire Slayer used, it's was left of centre. They said all kinds people rarely saw, or is unique to a region or time. And they only tended to use those words or phrases once.

gossi | October 04, 02:00 CET

Lines I liked:

"I like any song that can make me cry while everyone else is dancing." My favorite line. Gigi gets a little depth, especially combined with her line about them maybe being sisters (after hearing about Faith's parents).

"You want to kill Elizabeth?" Heh.

"You can bum whoever you..." BKV's definitely fond of the dirty jokes. My inner twelve-year-old loved it too.

"...not those itty-bitty things." I'm not sure that line's in character for Willow, but it made me smile.

Things I didn't like:

The whole evil-English-upper-class angle. Cliched much? And how true is it really, these days? Any comments from our Brits?

I really had a hard time believing that Faith could pull off a conversation with Gigi without raising any suspicions. Faith didn't make a very convincing Buffy even when she was inhabiting her body, and couldn't fake out Giles when she tried to get him to believe that Buffy had killed the deputy mayor. But here she can fake national identity, class accent, and all the rest after what, a few days of training by Giles?

Six pages for the gargoyle fight? The best fights on Buffy had a visceral energy that made them exciting, but comics have a hard time even approximating that, and besides, the space could be better used for more dialog and characterization.

Over all, enjoyable, but it'll probably read better when the whole arc is finished.

[ edited by shambleau on 2007-10-03 23:14 ]

shambleau | October 04, 02:09 CET

My frustration with Giles stems from the fact that Angel busted his ass (literally) to help put Faith on the long, hard road towards redemption, and this mission that Giles has given to her is exactly the wrong direction to point her in. Yes she has the choice to accept the mission or not, but that does nothing to ameliorate Giles' poor judgement in making the offer in the first place.

I'm still just a tad bitter over the way Giles (and Co.) left Angel (and Co.) high and dry when Fred died. I'm just not able to ignore that now that Faith is tangled up in the Buffy story system again. For my money she truly needs to be kept with the Fang Gang side of things. But *shrug*

As for the story at hand, I haven't picked up the issue yet so I still need to see how the art matches the script. But based on the script I'll say that BKV has a true mastery of Faith's voice. When all is said and done, assuming things all work out (somehow), I will pray every night for a Faith ongoing series. And if I may I'd like to suggest Ryan Sook as artist... if any Powers That Be are eavesdropping.

[ edited by Haunt on 2007-10-04 04:35 ]

Haunt | October 04, 02:20 CET

Sigh. Today I received #6 from TFAW. This is pointless.

Caroline | October 04, 02:24 CET

gossi- "Jewess" is a word with highly negative connotations. Neither Willow nor Joss should ever use it.

Dana5140 | October 04, 02:26 CET

Haunt, dreamlogic; I want to agree on what you're saying about Faith but a little voice keeps saying that she's already killed normal humans outside of self-defense and she can't really become "guiltier" so who else is there better to do "this kind of thing" these days? Not having been a combatant I can't speak to and don't wish to minimize the risk of ehr "becoming harder" because of this, though.

gossi; I have to wonder how "left of center" is a response to what barboo mentioned.

Dana5140; Hmm, I'm glad I was reading this and found out that the word has developed specific negative connotations. (The last time I heard *anyone* use it was in 1986 when my therapist was talking about Judy Resnick, long story.) If I ever get to writing that medieval fantasy I keep thinking about I may have to re-think a sentence I had in mind for the attendants at a hospital.

lorelei_frolick; Hmm, I'll have to keep your comments in mind when I get my copy. (altho I've never thought of "Buffy is short for ELizabeth" as a specific sign of bad fic before.) I don't use that and I think mine is good even if Vince thinks I'm crazed and straying far from canon.

DaddyCatALSO | October 04, 02:54 CET

My frustration with Giles stems from the fact that Angel busted his ass (literally) to help put Faith on the long, hard road towards redemption, and this mission that Giles has given to her is exactly the wrong direction to point her in.

Yes, that. And also she stabbed Giles with a fork while he was training her because she was having flashbacks. Subtle, yes, but that might indicate too much stress. Faith now has a conscience and PTSD. "Guiltier" is not the issue.

dreamlogic | October 04, 03:20 CET

Ooo. I like where I think this storyline is going. Very much.

That gargoyle fight scene's combination of the ridiculous (Faith is fighting flying gargoyle-monsters!) and excellence makes me all nostalgic for the tv show. *sniffle, wipes eye*

Sunfire | October 04, 03:58 CET

On shambleau's comment, with all due respect:
"The best fights on Buffy had a visceral energy that made them exciting, but comics have a hard time even approximating that, and besides, the space could be better used for more dialog and characterization."

I have to respectfully disagree about what comics can achieve- There are comics and comic book sequences that can grab one by the throat just as much (if not more) than something on the video screen... (for those familiar with "Daredevil" comix, my evidence would be comparing Frank Miller's comic book work on the death of Elektra-- who was the model for "Faith"--- versus the adaptation of the same sequence on film in the movie "Daredevil" which was incredibly weak by comparison)

I don't feel that making a action scene effective or as gripping as a motion picture (or tv show) as a weakness of the comic medium (which doesn't have the benefit of actors or music or sound), but of execution.

I agree that the action just wasn't portrayed as dynamic as it could have been... part of the choice may be the deliberate decision to keep things at a rapid pace (but understandable if you only get 17 pages a month for this story)--- versus, say, Japanese comix that in general can have a sequence of someone getting shot taking 4-5 pages visually, from different angles, perspectives, etc. so that an action scene isn't just an action scene, but maybe a dance with the character's possible (fictional) death- while in an American comic style (generally) that same action might take one or two panels at most.

Not better necessarily, but in some cases, it can add power and nuance to an action scene. I thought the gargoyle action scene was fine, but wasn't necessarily drawn in a way that'll burn in my memory for years to come. (but then again, I'm not the one who has to make monthly deadlines with drawing the comic, either- and I should point out that I do think Jeantes work is fine on the book, particularly the likenesses).

.... but I will concede that I don't feel that the art on the comics based on movies or television in general have really pushed the envelope on what's possible in comix yet.

harvey chin | October 04, 06:03 CET

I'm not quite sure if I liked this issue or not. Issue #6 was terrific, and I really felt like it was a full Faith episode. Maybe my hopes were too high for this one, but it seemed rather stingy. When I got to the last page, it had gone too quickly, and not because it was as enjoyable as previous issues. I didn't finish it feeling satisfied--more like annoyed that it didn't have more story to it. Here's to #8 being more story, less gargoyles.

I think there is some great potential with the Genevive/Faith relationship. If the first few pages of this issue are any clue, Faith is still battling some old personal demons that may play right into Roden's plan.

[ edited by pinkie7 on 2007-10-04 05:26 ]

pinkie7 | October 04, 08:25 CET

Haunt: What were Giles & Co. supposed to do about Fred? Am I just totally missing something?

I quite like this issue. Not as good as the Joss issues, but still very good. And I kinda like Gigi, even though she's a psychopath.

Considering all the poor judgements Giles made in season 7, I almost expected him to continue making mistakes in season 8, though I'm on the fence about whether asking Faith to kill Gigi was a mistake or not.

mysoulisbrown | October 04, 08:29 CET

In #6, they established Faith as the go-to girl for the really heinous stuff, hence the part where she had to dust vamps who had recently been little kids. That is where she fits in the chain of command, sort of a rogue-slayer on the radar. I like the complexity of that idea, that our good guy must sometimes do things that are very morally questionable to keep things safe for the little people.

I am on board with the narrative, here. It makes Faith a helluva lot more interesting than she would be if she had just stayed on the path to redemption, as an escaped con. It's also loads better than leaving her in the evil ho-bag henchwoman category.

And that's a technical term.

Raggedy Edge | October 04, 09:10 CET

Raggedy Edge, it's obvious that Robin thought he was sending Faith to save human children. That made it an unpleasant surprise for both of them, if he even heard about it, but more for her.

dreamlogic | October 04, 09:21 CET

I am again in the minority! I thought this was way better than #6, which I dug, but had problems with. This issue just offered lots of entertainment and all-around general excellence, and as far as I'm concerned, is one of the best issues so far.

...And I thought the gargoyle fight rocked. (Get it? "Rocked"? Get it?)

Now I'm gonna go over on .Org and get more in-depth, if anyone wishes to join me...

[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2007-10-04 09:20 ]

UnpluggedCrazy | October 04, 12:20 CET

I really liked the issue.I think BKV has Faith's voice down to a tee.

Buffyfantic | October 04, 17:39 CET

dreamlogic - reading back on issue 6, Robin's comments to "take care of them" can be read either way, I think. I originally read them as "take of these nice sweet children who need a good home to go to" but it can also be read as "take care of and possibly dust these children".

I didn't read the second way until several posters pointed out to me that there was nothing to sway the argument either way. Reading it the second way could explain why Faith was so sharp with Robin and why she terminated the conversation so abruptly.

catalyst2 | October 04, 18:01 CET

I agree that it can be read both ways, and like catalyst2 I originally read it more in the vein of, "Go help out these poor kids." Now I'm more in line with the darker reading of, "Go KILL these poor kids." And that right there could tell us a lot about what went wrong with the relationship between Faith and Robin. If he consistently saw her as the "ugly jobs girl" then I imagine that put something of a strain on the romance.

I know I keep harping on this, but the real tragedy here is that apparently NOBODY sees Faith as anything other than a killer. Except Angel of course. The Buffy landscape is absolutely the wrong environment for Faith to be in. She had made tremendous progress under Angel's wing so to speak, and living now in the company of people that apparently don't value that progress will only torture and damage her more and potentially cause a "killer relapse".

I'm not saying I don't love this story, because it's very well told and I love it. But in a perfect world Faith would be back in LA helping the Fang Gang (or what's left of them), or at the very least being an advocate for girls like Dana.

Haunt | October 04, 19:06 CET

DaddyCatALSO: I guess it's not so much a sign of badly written fic as it is a cliche that can get tiresome. Canon-wise, Buffy has always just been "Buffy."

Haunt: I'm still just a tad bitter over the way Giles (and Co.) left Angel (and Co.) high and dry when Fred died.
It always bugs me how Giles gets blamed for this too. What exactly was he supposed to do? Help them bring Fred back from the dead? 'Cause, y'know, playing god worked out so well the first time.

I'm with RaggedyEdge when it comes to Faith's character development.

I didn't mind the gargoyle fight at all. I thought it took up just as much space as it needed to. And I always like a good rock/hard place joke :)

Oh, oh! And does anyone else think Faith's choice of last name is significant considering the beastie from Buffy's nightmare? (Lyonne and a lion?)

lorelei_frolick | October 04, 19:19 CET

Haunt:...the real tragedy here is that apparently NOBODY sees Faith as anything other than a killer.

That's debatable. I would argue that Robin and Giles see Faith as a complex person who happens to be very good at killing.

[ edited by lorelei_frolick on 2007-10-04 16:25 ]

lorelei_frolick | October 04, 19:23 CET

...And I thought the gargoyle fight rocked. (Get it? "Rocked"? Get it?)

Heh. I have a feeling you also liked the Faith pun in the letter column.

Sunfire | October 04, 20:06 CET

The thing about Giles is that at that point they didn't know there was really no hope for Fred.They just knew that a Old One was walking around in her body.At that point they thought Fred's soul was out their in the ether,Illyria was like a vampire and Willow could restore Fred's soul to her body like she did with Angel twice.At that point they didn't know Fred's soul was destroyed.Giles refused to even try to look into it and see if there was anything that could be done.He just outright rejected the notion of even trying to help a friend of Angel's because Angel was at Wolfram and Hart.Would of it hurt to look into the situation and see if there was anything that could be done?Giles refused to even do that.

If that had been Buffy,Dawn,Xander or Willow then I bet Giles would of at least researched the situation to see if their was any hope.But here he even refused that because Angel was at W&H.

And I think Willow would of at least want to try to see if there was anything that could be done too.Willow was friends with Fred.At this point,Willow was now responsible with the use of magic so I don't think she would do something like bring someone back from the dead but at that time their thinking was that they could restore Fred's soul to her body like with Angel and Spike.That wasn't a resurrection spell,which was done to Buffy, but a soul restoration to an already animated body.

Like I said,Giles wasn't even willing to entertain the idea of looking into the possibility that something could be done.Giles wouldn't even hear Angel out.I don't think Angel got even far enough to tell Giles what happened with Fred.Giles hung up on him before he could.

That's why Giles and the Scooby Gang came off looking so bad to me in Angel season 5.If the situation was reversed and they thought Angel and his team had information to save one of their own and Angel refused to help or look into seeing if their was a possibility to help,how do you think Buffy,Giles and her friends would react?But Angel wouldn't do something like that.

This is why I think everything we saw and heard in Angel season 5 in relation to Buffy and the Scooby Gang was coming more from Giles then from Buffy.Giles has a history of doing this type of thing and I can't believe Buffy wouldn't help someone in need especially a friend of Angel's if she knew about it.I also can't believe Willow wouldn't want to try to help either especially if she knew it was Fred.And in Willow's case,I got the impression Giles wasn't even going to tell her after hearing what we did of the phone conversation in Shells.

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2007-10-04 17:21 ]

Buffyfantic | October 04, 20:18 CET

Well I think Buffyfantic made the point I would have regarding the way Giles sort of cut off any discussion with Angel.

But just so we're clear, before this gets out of hand, I'm not "bashing" Giles. I still like the character for who and what he is. And I don't think the actions I'm complaining about are out of character for him. I just happen to strongly disagree with what he's done, personally.

I have to be careful talking about this storyline because I've read all four scripts and know what's gonna happen. So I'll leave off saying that I love everything BKV does with this story and these characters, and I think he shows a gift for playing in Joss' sandbox. Again, should a Faith (or Giles, but prefers my Faith) miniseries or ongoing ever happen I'd be happy to see him write it.

Haunt | October 04, 20:55 CET

Aww, she tore her dress.


... Ahem, also, yeah, cool fight scene! Yeah! Manly comment!

Craig Oxbrow | October 04, 21:07 CET

Oh,I also love Giles.I think this sort of thing is very in character for him too even though I don't agree with his actions.

Buffyfantic | October 04, 21:24 CET

I think the problem with judging Giles or Angel’s actions in Shells is made very difficult by the fact that all we hear is the tail end of a conversation that clearly hasn’t been a meeting of like minds. The unheard part of their exchange is open to all manner of interpretations. It could have consisted of Angel calmly explaining what had happened to Fred and politely asking Giles if he thought Willow might be able to help. It could have involved Giles trying to point out that Illyria being no vampire, re-ensouling her wouldn’t necessarily bring back Fred or even make sense and maybe Angel would just have to accept that bringing her to W&H had killed her. Whatever was the case all we know is that it ended with Angel practically ordering Giles to get Willow off her astral and Giles retaliating by bringing up Evil Incorporated. Personally I’m not so sure going back to Angel would be the best thing for Faith, I think she’s already learned all she can from him and she needs to move beyond the whole father figure thing just as Buffy has. I suspect this gig with Giles is going to give Faith the chance to do the same.

hayes62 | October 04, 21:56 CET

Well... I respectfully disagree I suppose. I don't think Angel is necessarily a father figure so much as a support structure. He's been where Faith is and somehow manages to communicate with her the way no one else has been able to. Now if Giles finds a way to do that then I could see him filling a similar role in her life. I absolutely think that Angel is the better man for the job, if for no other reason than that bond is already strong between them. Plus I just think their individual darknesses are more similar than are hers and Giles. Of course we all know Giles has darkness in him, so he can certainly be a mentor of sorts for her. But it will take a LOT of work to get me personally beyond the connection I see between Faith and Angel. *shrug*

Haunt | October 04, 22:46 CET

Just picked it up and read it over lunch here in sunny St. Louis (where the theater half a block away proudly trumpets "Buffy The Musical!" coming next weekend). I enjoyed it every bit as much as the previous issue, and for the same reasons: characterization, funny lines, pacing, story. Bonus for this issue: a bit of suspense (will she/won't she kill Gigi in the receiving line?). These past two issues are simpler, overall, than Joss's. A good kind of simpler.

1starbuckstown | October 04, 23:20 CET

Or there's always the chance that ever since the Bringer's ax-attack that he's really PodGiles....

DaddyCatALSO | October 04, 23:33 CET

Just finished reading it, had chills at the beginning and had major chills at the end. In between was all enjoyable and I had nerves over Faith's possible maneuver to kill Gigi. I found this issue thoroughly satisfactory and am very impressed with BKV's intuitive treatment of these characters.

It has never occurred to me to be angry with Giles over his actions in Angel or with Faith. Whenever something doesn't seem right I sit back and let the writers explain it to me later. I agree with Hayes in the respect that we didn't "see" the decision making process and I'm sure if it were to come up again there would be more to the story on that line. Sometimes you have to look at the writers on the show and what they are trying to achieve. I think for that episode it was easier to write off help rather then try to get the actors involved in appearing on the show. Obviously they wanted Fred to die, otherwise they would have saved her. It just made it easier to put in how help was tried for but never received. What if they had just stood around and never made any calls? Wouldn't we have questioned that more? And writing it the way they did certainly left a lot open for explanation later.

Being Jewish, the term "jewess" did not offend me. Although the last place I remember reading it was Ivanhoe and while not placed in a derogatory way, it was certainly not a good thing to be (in the book). I looked at Willow's use of the word as a sign of her education (knowing the term from medieval research) and using it in a defiant yeah-I'm-Jewish-and-I-can-call-myself-this-with-pride thing.

Medusachick | October 05, 00:15 CET

Let's not forget, also, that Giles has never REALLY forgiven Angel for killing Jenny. He has tolerated his presence, he's played nice for Buffy's sake, but he has never trusted Angel as a true ally again. Angel's move to Wolfram & Hart gave him a justifiable reason not to trust him that even Buffy would have concede, the reputation of the firm being what it was, and the Buffy gang not knowing Angel's ultimate plan. I don't like to peg Giles with "revenge", but some part of him may have been a little satisfied that, as Angel had killed someone he loved, by refusing to help Fred, he could, in a relatively detached and guilt-free way, return the favor. Just a rambly thought.

Also, I thought the characterizations were fantastic, and I liked that Faith was a little less quippy...I know she quipped a lot, but I felt the last issue took that to a bit of an extreme. I loved her line about having too many voices in her head as well.

WillowSlay | October 05, 00:46 CET

The whole evil-English-upper-class angle. Cliched much?

A bit. And not only that, it's quite unfair to upper-class people, many of whom aren't evil. (jes' keeding my English chums, i'm sure many of you also aren't evil. OK, maybe not many ;-).

(still, it's probably necessary for the Pygmalion theme to work, what group of people are more different to a working class American girl that's had to struggle for or steal everything she's ever had ? What transformation greater ?)

Liked the issue for the most part, no major artistic weirdnesses like there were in #6, the action moved right along and everyone's voice felt right. I still have hopes that Giles is playing a long con and deliberately helping Faith discover (albeit through manipulation) that she's no longer a killer. Course, it works as well for Faith (and The Message) if she realises it despite Giles but it makes what he's doing more palatable if it's for a noble reason.

(though reading between the lines of Haunt's "pre-juiced" posts, it's starting to seem unlikely)

I liked Willow's "legs" line even if it is maybe a bit out of character (though you could also see it as her becoming more and more comfortable with her sexuality). Still, imagine if Xander had said it ? Maybe a bit icky from what amounts to a friend/surrogate big sister, slightly too saucy perhaps.

And I also liked Faith and Genevieve bonding over a crafty fag, maybe Faith is gonna pull an Angel herself, pay forward his kindness and help Lady G redeem herself.

BTW, according to Joss, Faith's canonical surname is "Lehane" a Scots/Irish surname which has a few anglicised descendants among them Lyons - so "Lyonne" would seem to just be a posh version of Faith's real surname. And I guess "Hope" is a fairly obvious go-to when your name's Faith - or Charity ;). Possibly significantly, the Lehane family motto is "Pro Rege et Patria" or "For King and Country". Update that for a female monarch and we may have an ancestral predisposition toward ass kicking on behalf of the Queen/Buffy ;).

One tiny thing though, what the hell's a "sped" ? I've heard of "ned" as a derogatory term for the great unwashed (it's more or less a Scottish chav). Is "sped" some newish variant that i've not heard yet (i.e. one that "the kids" are using on "the street" ;) ?

Saje | October 05, 00:57 CET

I thought part two got off to a cracking start with that close-up of Faith’s face reflected in the blade of her own knife - pan back to reveal S3 Buffy in avenging Angel mode. I’m not generally a big fan of voiceovers but the technique suits Faith’s noirish tendencies and her recap of when Buffy-met-Faith (abridged) set to their iconic roof top battle was counterpoint to die for. The trope worked just as well during her later battle royale with gargoyles, she’s never been the quippy Slayer, enough voices in her head already without adding to the babble and those voices were perfect whether flashing back to the last time a Slayer went to kill a Slayer, psyching herself up for wetwork or wishing she’d had time to say goodbye to someone. The only discordant note was her performance for the security checker, one can only assume they let her in out of not giving a rat’s ass how many insane, anglophiliac, gatecrashing Yanks their mistress would have to party with. Alternatively they were working for the G man all along. Lady G gained a little depth, a belly piercing and a Twilight themed, new age, pearl pendant by the end of the issue but I still kind of hope the poor little rich girl turns out to be more Warren than Andrew in the redemption stakes. Angstier that way. The Dawn and Willow show on the other hand was the perfect angst chaser, tiny floaty Ms Willow buzzing around Ms Dawn was as adorable as the hint of down on the back of Ms Renee’s neck.

hayes62 | October 05, 01:12 CET

Reading it the second way could explain why Faith was so sharp with Robin and why she terminated the conversation so abruptly.

But then why her shock when saw the children?

I don't know if the necklace is really Twilight-themed, but I'm wondering if Roden has a connection to Twilight. Maybe a defector who decided that a slayer-dominated world might not be so bad after all, if he were the power behind the throne? Corrupt minds think alike.

dreamlogic | October 05, 01:35 CET

But then why her shock when she saw the children?

I didn't really read that as shock. I read it as Faith trying to maintain hope that the kids were still safe, but then a sort of shoulder-sagging resignation that she really would have to dust them after all... hence the small, quietly pained, "damn."

Haunt | October 05, 01:42 CET

Yep, there's a difference between "Damn" as in "Hoped they wouldn't be vamped but now my worst fears are confirmed" and "Damn" as in "Oh no, they've been vamped when I fully expected them to be normal, if scared, little kids".

It's just that Faith being Faith and having her background, I see her going to the dark place in her mind pretty much straight away (and the shortness with Robin and grim expression as she Batmans off the statue at least leave it open to interpretation IMO - if she thought she was being trusted with caring for them, why the frown, why the "Well screw you too then" 'tude with Wood ? Room for doubt I reckon, certainly not obviously one thing or the other IMO).

Saje | October 05, 01:50 CET

"Again, should a Faith (or Giles, but prefers my Faith) miniseries or ongoing ever happen I'd be happy to see him write it."
Well, haunt, this gives away more than you might think. :-)

As to jewess, meduschick, it is a term used in highly derogatory ways by anti-semites. Yes, Willow might appropriate it, but that's Willow; lots of people are reading the comic and are not Willow. I'm Jewish, and to my friends and I it is not a term we would ever use.

Dana5140 | October 05, 02:08 CET

Well Haunt, this gives away more than you might think.

Does it? Are you sure?? I could always hope for an Anya series. Or a Wesley series. Hell there are thousands wishing for a Tara series, and KNOW she's dead. Hoping that a character gets a series (mini or otherwise) doesn't necessarily give anything away.

After all, this IS the Jossverse.

Haunt | October 05, 02:38 CET

It looks like shock face to me. I think all we're meant to take from the curtness of the Faith/Robin exchange is "bad break-up."

dreamlogic | October 05, 02:38 CET

It looks like shock face to me.

You may be right, of course. I think it's possibly even more tragic if Faith actually trusted that Robin wasn't sending her on a deliberately ugly mission like that. But in comics you need to take the lettering into consideration as much as the art and script. In this case the "damn" was normal font. If she were shocked or were raising her voice it would have been bolded, or the word balloon would have been modified somehow to show exclamation. And there probably would have been an exclamation point rather than a period. All of that, while in no way concrete proof, suggests to me that she said it in a rather calm, resigned fashion rather than a shout or gasp or shocked outcry.

But really only our esteemed writer may ever know for sure.

Haunt | October 05, 03:19 CET

dreamlogic, Roden pretty much has to have a connection to Twilight, considering he's always carting around that book with the Twilight symbol on it. Also, the photos on Gigi's wall include one of Buffy carrying around the weapon she used to zap the forcefield in the first issue. Ten to one the floating feet people couldn't identify were Roden's and he was snapping a few more pictures for Gigi.

shambleau | October 05, 03:35 CET

dreamlogic Haunt Sage :I have read into the shows err, gotten the impression that small or smallish children, while cosndiered a delicacy, are only very seldom sired into vamp-hood, and then only by the most hideously evil of vampires like The Master or Angelus**. So regardless of what Faith was expecting it probably would still hit her "kinda-sorta" hard.
Haunt; Well a flashback-type series is more plausible about soemone whom we know something has happened to before we met them or even think perhaps something might have happened before, and Wesley and Anya both fit those categories. On the other hand,we fairly well know nothing much (and I meant "nothing much" rather than "nothing") happened to Tara before she came to Sunnydale. Unless they go for my "Spook Squad" idea and decide to show adventures in the afterlife.

**Yes of course I have a fic idea about that like I do about everything else. A terminally ill little boy has to saty out of the sun and he runs into Harmony on a beach one night and finds out what she is and that's one of the three reasons she gives him why seh can't help him.

DaddyCatALSO | October 05, 03:36 CET

Shambleau, I think you are right on the money as to the floaty feet guy in the first issue (photos on Gigi's wall are a good link back to that). It is interesting that this group that is out to get Buffy doesn't seem to be so much Sci-fi vs Magic (the way the 4th Season's Initiative was), but really Magic vs Magic.

embers | October 05, 03:52 CET

I missed the symbol on the book. Thanks, shambleau.

dreamlogic | October 05, 04:42 CET

Haunt: "I have to be careful talking about this storyline because I've read all four scripts and know what's gonna happen."
You did? When? How? I'm going to go over all your posts with a fine-toothed comb now, trying to pick up hints.

When it comes to Giles and his actions I'm just going to ditto what Medusachick and WillowSlay have said and leave it a that.

"The whole evil-English-upper-class angle. Cliched much?"
I forgot I wanted to comment on that before. From what I've read, it's the English middle-class that are the snootiest and most uptight because they so very much want to be a better class, so they try too hard, while the upper class is totally secure and just do whatever the hell they want. Don't quote me on that, though. It's just what I've heard.

Saje: That's interesting about Faith's name.

lorelei_frolick | October 05, 09:52 CET

Yep, names have always been important to Joss I think. Seems like BKV feels similarly.

From what I've read, it's the English middle-class that are the snootiest and most uptight because they so very much want to be a better class, so they try too hard, while the upper class is totally secure and just do whatever the hell they want.

Pretty much, yep. There's an excellent book called "Watching the English" by Kate Fox, a social anthropologist, wherein she mentions that middle-class (especially lower to mid-middle class) people tend to be much more status conscious, buy flashier cars etc. than either end of the class spectrum.

That said, younger people aren't always securely positioned even within their own group so to be challenged on group identity by an employee (i.e. almost certainly of a lower class) might provoke a reaction. Also, from Roden's comments it seems like "Hope" may be a bit further down the pecking order than Genevieve - kind of "lower" upper-class - which may also allow for her sensitivity.

(in fairness though, I doubt BKV has that keenly developed a handle on the British class system, suspect he just went with the widely held idea that the posher you are, the more likely you are to treat people like shit)

But in comics you need to take the lettering into consideration as much as the art and script.

Very good point. It is just a statement rather than an exclamation (IIRC). Out of interest Haunt, were there any indications in the script of what BKV was going for or was it left open to interpretation ?

Saje | October 05, 12:44 CET

Take this with a grain of salt because I can't remember where I read this, so I can't source it, but bringing back the issue with the phone conversation in "Shells", I remember reading that Joss Whedon originally wanted to have Giles actually appear on the show to tell Angel that there was no way to get Fred's soul back. He wanted it to be Giles to be the one to relay this information because he was someone that Angel and his crew and thus the audience would believe completely, to drive the point home that there was no going back. As it turned out it was too expensive to get Anthony Stewart Head over to America and to the filming, so he created the character of Drogyn, who was literally incapable of lying, and thus when he said "Fred's gone", the same role would be filled. So, while that proposed scenario didn't happen, and you can't exactly say that the nicer interpretation of Giles behavior is then valid, it did show that there was intent to make him less of a d-bag in that situation.

Mind you, I still think Giles has made some pretty bad calls over the course of season 7, and I agree that doing this to Faith is in particularly bad judgment, but also in character. I just happen to like that part of Giles. He pisses you off because he's a good character, imo.

metal | October 05, 14:48 CET

"That said, younger people aren't always securely positioned even within their own group so to be challenged on group identity by an employee (i.e. almost certainly of a lower class) might provoke a reaction."

There is another factor too. Every group has all kinds of people...and within them certain types tend to find each other. I have no doubt that G's hired help would expect her friends and guests to be the same kind of people she is and treat them the same way she does. It does not matter what most of the upper classes may be like. Similar types gravitate to each other.

Oh, and I am right there with the puzzlement at judging what was going on with any of the Scoobie gang by what we heard on Ats S5. There is really no information at all...yet.

I like the issue, but don't love it because not much happened. Fight scenes are fine but not important to me, so an issue that involves a big fight is just wasting pages IMO. Plus, did I get it right, she just punched them really hard? I'll go back and look, I guess. This is where it becomes really obvious what a comics person I am not. Oh well.

newcj | October 05, 15:16 CET

... she just punched them really hard?

Nah, she punched them very hard (to no effect except bleeding and likely broken knuckles) then she jumped out of the way and let them rubble each other ("Rock ... meet hard place").

Use greater force against itself and all that. Sort of geolo-jitsu ;).

Saje | October 05, 16:26 CET

I enjoyed this issue but not as much as #6.

However: "bleeding sped"? I looked up sped and I don't think that posh people have those at private schools. Moreover, I don't think posh people say bleeding. Bloody is much more likely.

moley75 | October 05, 16:45 CET

What does it mean moley75 ? Even Google couldn't find a definition for me (though admittedly I didn't dig too deep). Anyone heard it used "in the wild" on this side of the pond ?

('special education' seems like a possibility which strikes me as American, 'special needs' being more common over here IME)

And no, as you say, "bleeding" ain't posh.

Saje | October 05, 16:58 CET

Saje,

I just Googled sped and slang and, indeed, came up with special education. It's just not British, is it?

moley75 | October 05, 18:49 CET

Saje, there wasn't any specific direction to the artist (or letterer) beside the panel description of Faith frowning to herself as she pulls out a modest wooden stake.

If you'd like more detailed excerpts directly (which might be a skosh (sp?) more spoilery), just e-mail me and I'd be happy to share.

Haunt | October 05, 19:11 CET

Re the "sped" issue, the British do use the term "special educational needs." I've never heard it contracted as an insult but I live a relatively sheltered life. However, I don't think we're supposed to believe that Faith has assimilated Giles's training perfectly, he probably had good reason to tell her to keep conversation to a minimum. For example she also refers to her father as the Viscount of Avalon (not Viscount Avalon), seems not to have realised that bringing firepower to market is much more illegal in the UK than the US and her bleeding speds are in line rather than queuing up for their popcorn. I figure the staff think she's some transatlantic wannabe but Gigi quite likely has other friends of the same ilk and as long as she's clean why cause any more of a scene?

hayes62 | October 05, 19:26 CET

I love BtVS to pieces but when it comes to portraying the British (and the Irish and the Jamaicans) it has always been a little suspect...I usually ignore it and suspend that belief of mine, but, in this case, it was so jarring that someone saying "bleeding sped" (and "in line") wasn't turfed out forthwith.

Still, I'm no longer best friends with BKV after catching up with Y - the Last Man and I can no longer forgive him anything... ;-)

moley75 | October 05, 19:59 CET

A good solid issue, with an interesting ending. As usual the dialogue was great (though sped was lost on me as well).

The only tiny thing that bothered me was the security guard with the machine gun over his shoulder. Even an evil security guard (he must be evil - look at that handlebar moustache) wouldn't openly carry a gun in Britain, especially at what was supposed to be a perfectly innocent birthday party.

Also, Roden never puts that book down! Must be super-glued to his hand.

moley75 - very much agreed, but I'd add Chinese as well.

Although I'm Scottish, I think someone has to stand up a bit for the English middle-class. The majority of people in England are middle-class (whether they admit it or not), so any generalisation about them is rather silly. The English upper-class on the other hand are, of course, pure evil. ;)

NotaViking | October 05, 20:21 CET

Aha, moley75, I used "sped UK slang", what a difference two little letters make ;). Leave out the "UK" and there're loads of hits (though the very first result with my terms does mention "special education" by coincidence which made the connection for me).

Personally I think they do a reasonable job depicting Brits ("We few we happy few" ... "we band of buggered", great line, very British outlook) though the Irish and Jamaicans (was that what Kendra was meant to be ?) not so much. There are many, many worse shows for realism of British English dialogue - presumably because Joss and Alexis Denisof spent some time here (as well as having ASH's ear to bend ;).

(maybe the machine-gun was to show just how much they hold the law of the land in disdain ? Or, more likely, it was just a Yank writer and artist that forgot/never knew that guns are banned/very, very hard to legally own in the UK ;)

Saje, there wasn't any specific direction to the artist (or letterer) beside the panel description of Faith frowning to herself as she pulls out a modest wooden stake.

That's pretty much what I thought Haunt, one of those choices that can be seen different ways. As you say, we may never know.

(may take you up on that offer after the arc's done, ta)

Saje | October 05, 22:09 CET

Whilst it's lovely to see the first Northern Irish character in Buffy, I've never met anyone called Raden in Belfast.

Simon | October 05, 23:57 CET

I took the use of "gay Wiccan Jewess" as an empowering context rather than a disempowering one. I do understand some people strongly feel some words with a historical and current disempowering usage shouldn't ever be used at all, though. I don't expect we can settle that debate in this thread. In the context of Buffy, and Willow in particular, I also took it as a usual Buffyesque flippant reference to the kind of name-calling that the characters are all designed to undermine. Similar to Buffy's: "Why? Spell it out for me. I feel an attack of dumb blonde coming on."

Sunfire | October 06, 01:08 CET

I completely agree Sunfire.

Haunt | October 06, 01:10 CET

I couldn't possibly take the time to read throuhg all of these comments, but I do want to say that it is now obvious what Buffy's dream about the Queen meant. All of this queen talk makes me want Nancy Holder's QUEEN OF THE SLAYERS to be used as the basics for Rome-BuffyDouble

Buffysmglover | October 06, 04:24 CET

When the gargoyles attacked, they did it right after a panel where Faith's hand was up by her knife. I didn't get the impression at all from their conversation that Faith was psychologically ready to carry out the assassination, though. Did anybody else think she was about to off Gigi?

shambleau | October 06, 21:59 CET

She was working herself up to it... but I sincerely doubt that she would have followed through.

Haunt | October 07, 00:06 CET

I guess, to me, if we were supposed to get that she was working her way up to it, a panel that focused on her face would have been psychologically and artistically a better choice. All we get is the back of her head and her hand grasping the knife. The whole conversation showed bonding going on, so there should have been something that transitioned from the bonding to Faith steeling herself to go ahead. The cut to her hand eliminates that emotional transition and it's too abrupt for me.

shambleau | October 07, 08:18 CET

Well, her dialogue seems to be "Maybe in a different ... [life]" which could be seen as resigned regret at what she was steeling herself to do but I agree, it's too abrupt. If Faith actually was going to kill her we needed another panel or at least an inset.

(I tried to fanwank it into her putting the knife back after removing it in the party but she doesn't seem to have it in her hands in the preceding panels)

Saje | October 07, 12:50 CET

Picked up #7 yesterday and I too can't possibly get through all the comments, but just wanted to say...

... where's Faith's tattoo?

Also, the word "Jewess" - to me, it felt totally wrong and like a slap in the face. I would never in a million years use that word to describe myself, and the thoughts that it's somehow empowering or reclaiming the word just don't work for me. YMMV.

I had no question about who she meant by "the Queen" even before turning the page, but whatever. I liked #6 better, to me #7 felt like vamping (no pun intended) and killing time. Onward to #8...

ETA: As I said last time, I still feel like sending Faith on a mission to kill a human was just totally wrong, given her history and what it did to her to kill a human before.

[ edited by Kirochka on 2007-10-07 16:33 ]

Kirochka | October 07, 19:32 CET

Just realized that Faith shouldn't know who Amy Winehouse is if this is taking place a year or two after Chosen.

shambleau | October 10, 00:16 CET

Well even though I've stated as much already, still wanna chime in and say I agree with Kirochka about this mission being wrong for Faith. But on well, onward and upward (we hope).

As for "Jewess"... I don't get it. Of course I have a fairly unique opinion of language and society's need to proclaim some words "bad". But regardless I'm curious why Jewess isn't just another word for female Jew. I mean if Xander were Jewish and called himself a Jew, that wouldn't cause an uproar would it? So is there a particular reason a female Jew shouldn't describe herself as a Jew-ESS? No disrespect, just asking.

Haunt | October 10, 03:13 CET

Well, it has negative connotations IMO (though that's obviously not the word's fault) but to me it's also just plain redundant and possibly sexist. We don't use "Catholicess" or "Protestantess" so why distinguish Jews by sex ?

("manageress" is similarly falling out of favour and I notice even "actress" is deprecated with "actor" becoming more common for women too)

Just realized that Faith shouldn't know who Amy Winehouse is if this is taking place a year or two after Chosen.

Dunno, Amy Winehouse was nominated for a BRIT award in early 2004 so she must've been around before then (and her star was definitely on the rise - in the UK at least - by mid-late 2004, or about a year after 'Chosen'). For a pretty switched on, hip young woman like Faith it's not unbelievable she might've heard of her (maybe moreso because she'd still have that pre-bandwagon cachet).

Saje | October 10, 12:35 CET

Faith may be switched on and hip, but she's living in Cleveland;) It's true Amy Winehouse's first cd, Frank, came out in 2003, but if it made any waves at all on Seattle's alternative stations, I missed it. She didn't break big here, as far as I know, until Back To Black in late 2006. But, I'll (grumpily) concede it's just this side of not unbelievable.

[ edited by shambleau on 2007-10-10 17:55 ]

shambleau | October 10, 20:54 CET

shambleau - to ease your grumpiness perhaps the way to think of it is that either Amy Winehouse was part of Giles' training - he's a musical guy after all! Or, maybe Faith paid attention to the Brit music scene once she'd arrived in England.

purplehazel | October 11, 02:35 CET

Nothing to see here, loving BKV's arc! Faith has always been in my top 5 Whedonverse characters, awesome to see her living again.

[ edited by greentara on 2007-10-12 00:57 ]

greentara | October 12, 03:54 CET

Anyone got any thoughts on this article which claims similarity with an earlier story? I haven't read the Nancy Holden book.

purplehazel | October 13, 06:12 CET