Whedonesque Mobile : Comments on 10355 : (SPOILER) Angel spinoffs "not happening"

Well thats lame isn't it.

It may be weird for something that will likely never see the light of day, but maybe a spoiler warning is in order. Again, it probably won't ever matter, but dem's some big spoilers.

And now I'm gonna go cry...

jam2 | May 15, 21:05 CET

Man, that really sucks...I was never the biggest Spike fan but I was really looking forward to the spinoffs...

Interesting about Gunn, though...

escapist | May 15, 21:08 CET

This is a really horrible blow. I had held out such hope. It was only a sliver of hope, but it burned brightly. Damn, damn, damn. Damn!

It's almost worse to know a bit about what the plans might have been for the projects. Three projects centering around Faith, Willow and Spike? Oh lord. I'll join you in the crying section, jam2.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2006-05-15 19:45 ]

phlebotinin | May 15, 21:14 CET

Time to uncharacteristically play the optimist: if there was ever a time for a last ditch fan campaign now would be it...

(Of course if it came down to differences in approach between Joss and Fox then a fan campaign could be futile now.)

Jackal | May 15, 21:15 CET

FOX - The Wolfram & Hart of Whedonverse. I really hate those guys.

Charmuse | May 15, 21:19 CET

I can't understand Fox, the DVDs are obviously profitable, otherwise they wouldn't keep churning out the boxsets (just been re-re-released in the UK) and the "best of" releases. Don't they reckon that something new would make even more!?

[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2006-05-15 19:24 ]

Ghost Spike | May 15, 21:24 CET

I don't want to sound like I'm grasping at straws for a little hope here but if it really was the case that the spinoffs weren't going to happen then wouldn't Joss have been the first to tell us here?

He knows that we have been eager to hear of any news on this subject, even if that news was negative. I would imagine that he would have taken five minutes to give us the heads up, assuming that the spinoffs really are not happening.

Just a thought.

Serial Rocker | May 15, 21:41 CET

Perhaps FOX truly is run by IDIOTS!!!!!. Anyway...this is pretty much an indication that the suits aren't really interested in coughing up the bucks for much from the Verse period...at least in my eyes. If a few DVDs are not within their budget...then I doubt there is much chance of even bigger ventures.

I guess the comics may be the only hope left...

Morons...and yet a show with mindless bimbos, families swapping spouses, or eating the most disgusting insects and entrials will probably get renewed every year......go figure.

kathylovesspike | May 15, 21:42 CET

In fairness (and someone pointed this out before) the boxsets and best-of's are pretty cheap to put out. They've already been shot, they just have to be put together for DVD. The spinoffs would be a whole new production and would cost a pretty penny right up front.

jam2 | May 15, 21:45 CET

Ah, I'm glad this was put on an official site somewhere, I'd only seen it in a fan report(though I trust that fan implicitly, I guess this gives it more validity for everyone else).

Maybe Joss will weigh in here? Though I can only imagine his reaction would be, "Well, there is nothing definitive one way or the other. Now I must go slap Amy."

Rogue Slayer | May 15, 21:54 CET

Well if it's not happening, presumably we don't need a spoiler warning.

Ah well. I had really hoped we'd see a Spike spinoff etc but it obviously wasn't to be. But we'll always have fanfic and comic books and Paris and stuff.

Maybe Joss will weigh in here?

Joss in New York tonight accepting that Equality Now award and I'd feel extremely uncomfortable if this thread or indeed any thread at Whedonesque turned into "Hey Joss! Tell us what's happening!".

I'm sure the ins and outs will be revealed sometime soon.

Simon | May 15, 22:02 CET

Joss is, uhm, in New York at the moment. And I'm _not_ stalking him (I must, er, stop making that joke). It's the Equality Now event thing tonight.

Anyway, just to say from my point of view, this is a real shame. I'd heard rumblings of it being Spike, Faith and Willow project, and we all know it was due to tie into the Buffy season 8 comics more than likely.

You never know - it might actually still happen years into the future, but not any time soon, I'll agree with Mrs Acker on that. The world revolving around financing sometimes annoys me.

Edit: Simon wins. Also, to make something clear: Amy mentioned this at a Starfury convention. Starfury don't allow recording of guest talks, so there's probably misquoting of Amy here - it's very unlikely they have a recording of the talk. To what extent, I don't know, but don't take it word for word.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-05-15 20:08 ]

gossi | May 15, 22:05 CET

Hmmm, saving Gunn by vamping him. I never thought of that . He certainly had a lot of Fred-related guilt to atone for.
I suppose I would feel worse if I had been holding on to any glimmer of hope or if I didn't think Not Fade Away was a fitting (if angonizingly premature) ending. Still... damn it all, I miss those characters! And if FOX blew a chance to right a wrong and maybe earn a little forgiveness, well, I can't think of anything to say that doesn't end in 'rot in Hell'.

bloodflowers | May 15, 22:09 CET

Well I agree this is a severe blow. Considering the source I would have to say this is as pretty close to the nail in the coffin as there is. Is anybody really that surprised. The more time that passed the less likely Fox was bound to make it happen.

Unless Joss pipes in here and debunks this info, I think it's safe to say, adios Buffy and Angel.

DarenG | May 15, 22:20 CET

Joss is, uhm, in New York at the moment.

I hear they may get computers sometime this century! :~D (Not that I think Joss carries around his laptop so he can keep on top of Whedonesque...)

And apologies Simon, though I wasn't actually asking for him to respond, more of an outloud wondering on my part, as this seems like a headline that might make him(and everyone else interested in this news) take notice. And I think Joss rarely ever posts in the threads where people ask him to. No, you find that guy in the oddest places...

Rogue Slayer | May 15, 22:21 CET

*sigh*
I'd like to compose something dignified and reasonable here, an elegy to the verse we know and love. But I can't. I'm just gonna throw my toys out of the pram here.
I want more Faith! Waaaaaah!

lone fashionable wolf | May 15, 22:31 CET

"Fox couldn't get it together the way Joss wanted to do them".

Which could probably be narrowed down to:

1) Creative control.
2) Budget.
3) Time scale.

Btw just to make it clear, I've amended the subject line that this comes from a con report.

Simon | May 15, 22:31 CET

Well, a few months ago, Joss said he was waiting to find out if it was financially viable from the powers that be. If that hurdle was passed, who knows.

gossi | May 15, 22:41 CET

This is really disappointing news. I wasn't holding out much hope for this project. It was just a glimmer, and now that's gone. It always seemed that Joss was interested, and the actors were interested. I think Simon narrowed the problem down to the likely problems, and it's really too bad things couldn't be negotiated.

palehorse | May 15, 22:41 CET

Amy mentioned this at a Starfury convention. Starfury don't allow recording of guest talks, so there's probably misquoting of Amy here - it's very unlikely they have a recording of the talk. To what extent, I don't know, but don't take it word for word.

I know several people who attended the Starfury con. That's not a misquote. Ms. Acker said that.

menomegirl | May 15, 22:48 CET

Hurray! Well, it's always worth approaching these things with caution. I've seen things quoted from conventions before which were roughly right, but odd words were quoted wrong which changed meaning.

gossi | May 15, 22:53 CET

Yeah, this isn't a misquote. I read the same thing up on LJ.

spikeylover | May 15, 22:57 CET

I've seen things quoted from conventions before which were roughly right, but odd words were quoted wrong which changed meaning.

So have I. And even though she said that, I think approaching it with caution at this time is a very good idea. Things could and might change in the future.

There's always hope.

menomegirl | May 15, 23:02 CET

One need look only as recently as 7th Heaven for something that had its "series finale", and now appears to be coming back. So, yeah, hope.

jam2 | May 15, 23:11 CET

Hope enough to do the card campaign...or what????
If it's to FOX...I just don't really know if they will even give a damn.

kathylovesspike | May 15, 23:17 CET

This is sooo not the news I have been hoping to hear at Whedonesque.. but does Amy Acker really know that Fox are refusing to go ahead with the DVD movies. Last we heard from Whedon was at the Saturn awards when he announced he had pitched a the project to Fox, but Fox had yet to reply.

Time to uncharacteristically play the optimist: if there was ever a time for a last ditch fan campaign now would be it...

This does sound like a major major blow, but surely there's always a chance things could change. I'm thinking that this is a good time to let Fox know there is still interest in this franchise. I say we go ahead with the postcard campaign that has been spoken about to send postcards that arrive at Fox on Whedons birthday on June 23rd, that's recently been discussed at supportspike.com

paxomen | May 15, 23:49 CET

No, Amy, say it ain't so! I do hope that someday we get more Angel, although at least the fact that they went out swinging is some consolation.

WilliamTheB | May 15, 23:52 CET

I was at this event at the weekend and yes, that report was right.

She seemed pretty sure about what she was saying, and the fact the films had no chance of being made now. *sigh*

[ edited by sueworld2003 on 2006-05-15 21:58 ]

sueworld2003 | May 15, 23:57 CET

Hmm. Okay. So. DC Comics cancels Manhunter.

Right after I read that and come here to read this.

This is *not* turning out to be a good Monday.

Emma Frost | May 16, 00:01 CET

Well Amy is very close with Joss on a social level.She always seemed to have his ear on this because they hang out together.I always got the impression she knew more about the state of things with The Spike movie then even James Marsters.So I don't doubt what she is saying.Everything lately has been pointing in this direction.

Buffyfantic | May 16, 00:02 CET

Well it was always a long shot but it's still dissappointing to hear. A Spike one, a Faith one and a Willow one. Damn but I would've loved to have seen that! And I kind of like the idea of Spike having to face Gunn as a soulless vamp. It's so fitting and tragic that Gunn of all people would become an evil vampire. I think J. would've enjoyed playing that.

And Simon's right, disagreements with Fox on the deal probably came down to one or several of the three elements he lists. Well, maybe at some point in time we may find out some details on that. Gotta admit I'm damn curious but usually it takes some time before people get a little more loose-lipped about that stuff. Joss was pretty open later on in interviews about what went down with Firefly and such so who knows.

And no I'm not curious, I just always need to know everything. ;)

(Of course what would be REALLY funny if it wasn't quite over yet and somewhere Joss is going "Amyyyy!! Ya little blabbermouth!";)

EdDantes | May 16, 00:02 CET

With all the fan fic, has anyone considered Gunn being sired? That is quite an interesting idea, and would be his nightmare.

I can also see Spike/Illyria together during NFA, since he started taking on the role as her "watcher" anyway, with the training and such.

I just wish we could have had THIS movie, and then if successful, take it from there. I know that Aly was saying she didn't want to be involved unless Joss wrote it, and Eliza already turned down a Faith series in favor of TRU CALLING, so I don't know how available they'd make themselves for this. Still, if there If not Willow or Faith, than certainly Xander or Giles might have been interesting.

spikeylover | May 16, 00:09 CET

All that waiting. And for nothing. I'm pretty royally pissed off, mostly for the fact that its obvious that Joss has tried hard in getting these movies made, and Fox just throw it in his face like the twats they are.

I've always had loads of optimisim and hope for this project, but no more.

Apocalypse | May 16, 00:18 CET

OK, I admit this might be the crazy talking, & I'm not quite ready to let go, and possibly way off, but:

I think its safe to say that�s not happening anymore, 'cause if they were, they�d be getting done right now.�

Is it just me or does it look like Amy Acker is assuming that there's no chance of the movie, without certainty that the movies are still an impossibility. If she knew that no deal was possible on the movies, shouldn't she have been a bit more confident as in.

~~I think~~ its ~~safe to say that�s~~ not happening anymore ~~'cause if they were, they�d be getting done right now.�~~

What does this mean about the brand new campaign at supportspike.com; which was gonna try to maximise the number of postcards arriving at Fox on the same day (June 23rd - in 37 days)
Campaign #9:NOT FADE AWAY?

[ edited by Dalton on 2006-05-15 22:30 ]

Dalton | May 16, 00:18 CET

I dunno you guys. This seems like another case of the actor says something that they don't really know for sure because they're not the ones making the deals. I think its still possible. Acker may have given up, but I think we really do need a campaign to make 20th Century really aware. Everyone gave Serenity a massive campaign, the Buffyverse deserves one too.

ChosenOne5376 | May 16, 00:19 CET

Well, I'm sending my postcards on that day. What, it's going to cost me about two bucks? IMO, the main thing is getting the first movie made, and then if it does well (When it does well) going from there. You could even lead into a FRAY or something. (and a series) Sue me, I know Joss is the big Movie producer/director/writer, but I love his work on TV. (Am I wrong for saying that?) IMO, Characters are so much more fleshed out and loveable in a long running series than they ever can be in the movies.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-05-15 22:25 ]

spikeylover | May 16, 00:25 CET

Well, to be clear, Serenity had quite a fan campaign after it'd been made, to get people to watch it - I don't think it had a big campaign to get it made really.

Certainly, postcard away, but if Joss couldn't convince them, I don't think postcards are going to cut it personally.

gossi | May 16, 00:25 CET

I don't know about Alyson but recently in the official Buffy magazine,Eliza said she would be up to reprising Faith in a movie and Tony has shown interest in Ripper still at a convention a month or two back.

Buffyfantic | May 16, 00:31 CET

Well DVDs, word of mouth, and actually identifying that it's quality entertainment convinced Universal........but then again we're talking about a FOX company.

ChosenOne5376 | May 16, 00:32 CET

See, we should just let them remodel the project in a reality TV demon hunting programme. Where, like, Spike kills things and then Illyria eats them for dollars!

gossi | May 16, 00:35 CET

At this point, wouldn't it be best to concentrate on a Spike movie first, and then see how it goes? Spike should also sell well overseas (they even put COOL MONEY out in Germany, and that doesn't happen with TV movies).. I think the thing would make Fox some money and not be a bust, which is the main thing for this kind of stuff, as we know.

Anyway, if the Spike movie did well, then maybe a big screen movie with Sarah, David, James and the scoobs might be an option that Fox would consider, or obviously the others.. Faith, Willow, etc.

Considering that BTVS is one of it's biggest sellers ever, I don't understand why it's such a problem. That's why I'm a fan and not involved in all that, I suppose.

spikeylover | May 16, 00:41 CET

The X-Files sequel(...) will get made before Fox does anything with Buffyverse again.

eddy | May 16, 00:50 CET

Nah, James Cameron's Dark Angel DVD movies (...) are first ;)

gossi | May 16, 00:52 CET

It was a shame to read, but I'm still a little tiny bit hopeful that we've not seen the end.

The idea of Gunn becoming a vamp in season 6 sounded quite good too.

whosflyingthisthing? | May 16, 00:55 CET

I never really expected them to return so this news doesn't bother me much. The only thing I still have hope for is a Watcher based show starring Giles and the ghost of Wesley. The next real step is for some lucky Whedonite to win the lottory and pay for the next Serenity movie.

Kerec | May 16, 00:59 CET

The Buffyverse is too rich to sit dormant forever. If Joss is really doing Buffy 8 in comics, maybe Angel 6 will follow?

Still hope, some day, some how, some way, Buffy/Angel will hit my TV again...

ReneRitchie | May 16, 01:03 CET

Fox is throwing away such an opportunity.I got money burning a hole in my pocket...but they'd have to provide a product that I'd actually want to buy. So far,they're not doing so well.

Berry | May 16, 01:10 CET

Now, that is just sad. There goes my day. Must have beer.

Harmalicious | May 16, 01:38 CET

spikeylover Not just Germany. COOL MONEY was released in the UK on DVD too. That just doesn't happen much that I've seen. Guess whoever made that film knew the appeal of James Marsters.

lynnie | May 16, 01:59 CET

You never know - it might actually still happen years into the future, but not any time soon, ...

Unfortunately, years into the future means no Spike, at least not James Marsters as Spike. In fact, depending on how many years it could mean not having the original cast.

killinj | May 16, 02:11 CET

Interesting bit about Gunn. I remember Joss' remark when he has been asked about the post-NFA events - "Gunn pretty much dies". So he hasn't been kidding after all.

But I thought that Gunn would turn into some kind of "were-panther" - a feline version of werewolf.

I wonder what kind of disagreement kept FOX from commiting to TV movies. Money? Final cut right? Choice of characters?

Moscow Watcher | May 16, 02:11 CET

On my list of things to do if I ever won the lottery: fund a Buffy/Angel spinoff of some kind. If Whedonesque ever implements signature files (just kidding!), mine will read, "Fox is the Devil." Maybe the comic book Season 8 of Buffy will actually feature Fox as the Big Bad.

Ocular | May 16, 02:13 CET

While I'll admit that I'm way more invested in "Buffy" and seeing SMG reprise the role for a big screen movie...this really sucks. I've always kinda been of the mind that we should have it all. Spike movie, Faith movie, I'd prefer Ripper but whatever THEN the big screen movie featuring SMG.

I think the potential storyline sounded interesting, would have preferred Dru there but Amy's account of what it would have been really caught my interest. All the returning characters would have been awesome. Poor Gunn.

Things look bleak but it ain't over til the fat lady sings, so to speak. Agree with Gossi, it will take something bigger than postcards to touch Fox. The possibilities are endless with enough fan support. Saving Angel kinda set a new standard for campainging. I don't think Fox sucks near as much as the WB did.
So really, anything is possible. IMO.

cheryl | May 16, 02:18 CET

Well, I have to admit, I starting watching Buffy in season 6 and became addicted because of the fascinating character Spike, this news makes me very sad. :(

I don't think this news bodes well for any future Buffyverse.

[ edited by wrikiwood on 2006-05-16 00:40 ]

wrikiwood | May 16, 02:39 CET

A couple things working against our beloved continuations: Tim Minear, who Joss/James (I forget which) mentioned would probably helm the Spike movie, is busy with another series (granted that could mean he'll be available again Tuesday considering his luck, but still). Also, it's been quite a while since Angel went off the air, and the Save Angel campaign did not lead immediately into a Continue Angel Some Other Cool Way campaign, i.e. as far as a widespread movement is concerned, nothing solid ever really materialized for the fans to support--except of course Serenity. So the fans and Joss did Serenity (remember, he said it was our movie too, even if it sucked), considerable but non-public work towards a Spike movie probably happened, but it didn't congeal with a big web campaign or anything and now we're 2+ years down the road. People got busy with other projects. Joss has Wonder Woman. Tim has Cannonball Run: The Series. James, Amy, Alyson, etc. have other work.

All that said...yes, anything can happen with this group of extremely talented people we're talking about. We've seen 'em move mountains on our behalf before. So I'll never quite give up hope of the Buffyverse returning to the screen. Ask Captain Reynolds about giving up, see what his .02 is.

MrArg | May 16, 02:40 CET

Ohhhhhh, well.

TheZeppo | May 16, 03:16 CET

"nothing solid ever really materialized for the fans to support--except of course Serenity. So the fans and Joss did Serenity"

Not all Btvs/Ats fans are also fans of Firefly/Serenity. I saw FF, it was ok, but I wouldn't call myself a fan so I got nothing out of that deal unfortunately.

FOX and Joss couldn't agree on stuff so I think we need to not heap all the responsibilty of this soley on FOX. It's a two way street. *sounds like Sigourney Weaver in Working Girl* 80)

lynnie | May 16, 03:27 CET

I'm disappointed but I still plan to send in postcards to Fox.

Reddygirl | May 16, 03:37 CET

I'm still up for sending cards, but if the reason comes down to money or creative differences, I don't think FOX will budge.
But I will send my cards and hope that they get the hint that we still love the Verse and want more. Start with Spike...see if that is successful and go from there...

kathylovesspike | May 16, 03:39 CET

I've done my grieving over the Buffyverse over the last couple of years - I never let myself seriously hope for these movies. Joss and James always seemed very aware that the clock was ticking on them anyway.

Firefly/Serenity proved that Joss's genius is not restricted to the Buffyverse, so I choose to look at it this way: as long as Joss is making something, I'll be happy.

pevensie | May 16, 03:47 CET

pevensie, right on. I'm glad to know someone here has accepted the end of the shows and has moved on. We're all here because we love Joss's work, past and future, and continue to support him in more ways than any other storyteller out there.

He could do fucking King Kong 2 with Queen Latifah as the monkey and I'd still be there. THAT's how much I respect, adore and support the man whose name is at the top of this page.

TheZeppo | May 16, 03:53 CET

Hahaha, Zep. I agree in full that I am looking foward eagerly to Goners and WW. However, I just want to know what Fox's marketing and money folks are thinking? They have a a built in market, the cherished 18 -49 market to boot. They all want the hip new thing and as far as I can see Joss is part of the "screaming fanboy" demographic the network suits seem to covet and do all sort of crap to reach. Where are their heads at?

It boggles the mind.

[ edited by Charmuse on 2006-05-16 02:05 ]

Charmuse | May 16, 04:03 CET

Yes, but Charmuse, we don't know what goes on inside those offices or those meeting rooms. It boggles the mind also that the Palladinos left Gilmore Girls before their final season. Why would they abandon their baby even though it's been mentioned they knew exactly how the final four episodes would play out? They left for the same reason, not being able to come to terms with the studio's demands or what have you.

Us fans (we fans?) only get the finished product. We don't know the REAL behind-the-scenes. So while it may seem unfathomable to us that the network won't revitalize a story with a rabid fanbase, there has to be reasons beyond what we know. It's sad, but there's not much we can do anymore.

TheZeppo | May 16, 04:20 CET

So, anyone up for picketing outside of Fox for Joss' birthday? ;-)

(Only partially kidding. Hey, I'd do it!)

deanna b | May 16, 04:54 CET

Charmuse, you said "Where are their heads at?" well, like you said they all want the hip new thing. Right now thats people like J.J. Abrams, Ron Moore, etc.

eddy | May 16, 04:56 CET

This makes me feel sad, because it sounds so final, and I was so hoping for another glimpse of the Buffyverse, somehow, somewhere.

I do want to hear it from Joss, though.

sari | May 16, 04:56 CET

JJ Abrams has an ENORMOUS show though.

TheZeppo | May 16, 04:58 CET

Truthfully, this isn't a big surprise to me, although it really does suck. In my opinion at least, the only reasonable way for a continuation of the Buffyverse has to do with the actors not doing so well in their careers and wanting to go back to their former roles. I'm not saying that I want this at all, but "Bones" is doing extremely well, SMG is making movies, Aly is doing great on "How I Met Your Mother", and Spike/Smallville looks...well...good. I feel that if anything in the Buffyverse is to be expanded upon it would have to be with big actors in a big format. That's why the DVDs never seemed like a viable option to me. It would probably have to be TV/Movie. Honest opinion. Sad, but honest.

[ edited by Gwendolyn Post on 2006-05-16 03:29 ]

Gwendolyn Post | May 16, 05:26 CET

Well, here's the thing. Popular perception in media marketing is that the new hip "troika" of sorts is Abrams, Whedon and Kelly. It is what the networks, studios, blah, blah, blah think the youth market is hot for. And they are right, pretty much. Southland has huge buzz, as does WW, and to a lesser extent Goners. LOST is huge. MI:3's less than expected performance at the BO can be saddled on squarely Cruise, not on JJ. It just puzzles me that Joss and his work is not considered more viable by a network that holds alot of the cards. I understand the backroom dealing and issues over money and creative control. My first job after college was with Fox and I just think the are cheap and short sighted, just like they have always been.

Charmuse | May 16, 05:29 CET

I rescind my comment, Charmuse.

TheZeppo | May 16, 05:32 CET

I'm still trying to get my mind around Gunn becoming an evil vampire. I'm sure it would have been awesome fun for J. August Richards to play but it would have been heartbreaking to watch him. As someone earlier on said, it would have been the thing Gunn hated the most. And it seems like there would have been no coming back for him. There have just been too many characters becoming evil for a time and then being redeemed that it was becoming a little hackneyed.

barboo | May 16, 05:53 CET

Well, I thought that I'd stopped believing that this would happen, but this new info did hurt a little. It's too bad. There are so many more stories to be told about the Fang Gang. Buffy's story really could have ended with S5 (I'm glad that it didn't, though), but who knows where that alley could have led Angel et al? Not us. I am a Fan of Joss' Work, but I am no fan of unfinished business. I am also no fan of laying blame, but if I really do find out why this is (not) happening, I could get mean!

Bionic | May 16, 07:16 CET

I have no words... :-(

Nebula1400 | May 16, 07:28 CET

I think it's all bullshit. It's way too early in the game to make a blanket statement saying 'oh, none of this will ever happen, it's all dead! FOREVER!'

I'm sure Amy is speaking from what she knows at this point. And I'm sure she knows a helluva lot more than I do. But truth be told, if they pony up the dinero, it'll happen. The actors will come, Joss will write it, and we will all be bumping into walls with excitement.

Call me Cleopatra if you want, but I just can't believe that it's dead just yet.

Willowy | May 16, 07:47 CET

Well, this crushes my soul.

But, I shall not let my soul be obliterated completely until Joss gives a statement.

UnpluggedCrazy | May 16, 08:27 CET

It's just an opinion on the current state of the project, so I wouldn't put too much stock into it. I would say this holds as much as a character on Joss' show being really dead.

delirium_haze | May 16, 08:38 CET

*sets up a stall selling Orb of Thesulah for the soul-ridden*

[ edited by NickSeng on 2006-05-16 06:40 ]

NickSeng | May 16, 08:39 CET

Right on, Willowy!

If something happens many, many years from now and our beloved actors have moved on, I'd be up for a spin off or feature with new verse characters! There are now lots o' slayers after all. Hell, I'd be up for that now.

[ edited by Harmalicious on 2006-05-16 07:06 ]

Harmalicious | May 16, 08:52 CET

Joss just write us a novel if we can't see it on the big or small screen. Come on, you've done tv, movies and comic books why not take it one step further and start writing us some Buffy, Angel and Firefly novels - big fat adventure filled novels! I really enjoyed reading the script for Serenity but would have loved to have seen all the stuff you tossed out for it too!!

Firefly Flanatic | May 16, 09:34 CET

Well big huge bummer. I really hope we find out details eventually. I wonder what the sticking point was. Money? Story? Control? Script?

There can be no comparison between a comic book, a novel and seeing the story on screen. I am disappointed to say the least.

For me its all about Spike and since there can't be Spike in the Joss written comic books, it looks like the verse is really over for me.

Thank god for Fan Fiction but I still really miss the visuals.

One more thing to mourn in a long train of things to mourn in this verse.

Xane | May 16, 09:46 CET

Well, this is grim. But I agree with those here who don't quite believe it's all over. I may also be grasping at straws, but I won't really believe that all possible spinoffs/movies, etc., etc. are all deader than the proverbial doornails until I hear it from Joss via the media somehow (here, there or anywhere). (BTW, can "dead" really be a comparative?)

Anyway, I plan to do the postcard bit. I'm hoping lots of us die-hard fans will. I have no idea if it will have any effect, but it's worth trying. So. Whaddaya say?

SangChaud | May 16, 11:37 CET

Ok, there are a few people asking Joss' opinion on the state of the Angel spin offs here.

He actually gave it last week, for those who don't watch everything. Have a look in the archives here for the video interview with Joss. He basically said he's pitched it (many and various ways? I can't remember the quote) and now he's waiting to see if anybody picks it up.

Ultimately, he's taken it to the studio, and nothing has happened.

Willowy is also, in my opinion, spot on that if somebody ponies the money, everybody could still get on board at this stage - but, personally, I don't see how that is going to happen.

So, Buffy season 8 comics for me.

gossi | May 16, 12:14 CET

Add me to the line of bummed out people. While I'm not one of the biggest Spike fans around (I still feel his character was misused during the whole 'chipped' period), I was certainly looking forward to the movie. And Faith and Willow movies? Well, you could definately have counted me in. This bit about Gunn sounds very intruiging as well. But I guess it's just not to be.

On the one hand this is very depressing news. On the other hand I'm glad we got a total of 12 seasons of Buffyverse television. And as Firefly, Serenity, Astonishing X-Men and other things have proven, I'm pretty much predestined to fall for anything that Joss puts out, so I'm sure I'll be enjoying new Joss-y goodness for quite some time. It's just sad that the verse that started it all for so many of us seems to not be returning in any live action forms anytime soon.

Having said that, I am still looking forward to the Buffy S8 comics.

ETA: edited because 7 + 5 = 12, not 13. Heh.

[ edited by GVH on 2006-05-16 11:50 ]

GVH | May 16, 13:49 CET

This is accurate, I was there and Amy seemed reticent (and quite sad about it too) to say too much other than she didn't expect it to happen. She hoped she wouldn't get into trouble for mentioning it. Then after some encouragement from the audience she revealed the Gunn storyline.

I would say from J's reaction that he was not aware of this but seemed happy with the character development.
Starfury record the event and may eventually release DVD's.

I'll stay optimistic that we will get more verse eventually - just not right now.

The Do That Girl | May 16, 14:27 CET

I still think the cards will at least keep reminding them that we are still here.
It's just a few hours of time and a couple of stamps...although I plan to send as many as I can afford to. What the hell....

kathylovesspike | May 16, 15:32 CET

ChosenOne5376 wrote:

Well DVDs, word of mouth, and actually identifying that it's quality entertainment convinced Universal........but then again we're talking about a FOX company.

Maybe Serenity isn't the best example to bring up here.

If Fox thought it'd make real money, they'd greenlight it straight away. Simple. They're a business, they don't have a personal axe to grind.

PMMJ | May 16, 16:21 CET

They're a business, they don't have a personal axe to grind.

Hmmm. Well not completely convinced by the lack of axe grindiness. But at the end of the day, it is always about the money. And in that respect I think 20th Century Fox are wrong.

Simon | May 16, 17:26 CET

There's a saying I heard...

"In business, everything is personal, but money rules all."

Although I just made that up.

gossi | May 16, 17:30 CET

This is certainly a sad development. I was still holding out for the Spike movie. Sadly, gossi, I think you're right about the money/business issue. I think Fox is looking at the success and profitability of their reality-based shows like American Idol and are putting their investment more into that type of production.

I would still love to see these stories see the light of day, however. I hope Joss' Season 8 Buffy comics let us know what happened.

By the way, are we absolutely certain that Spike cannot appear in the Joss-written Buffy comics? I know IDW have the rights to the Spike and Angel comics, but I wonder if that's exclusive? It would certainly be nice to hear how things go for those two characters in the Season 8. Now that I think of it, though, that would have coincided with Season 5 of Angel, and Spike never told Buffy he had come back. Hmmmmmm--on to Season 9, then! LOL

greenlady | May 16, 18:37 CET

IDW's rights to Angel,Spike and the other Angel characters are exclusive the same as Dark Horse's rights to the Buffy characters.

Buffyfantic | May 16, 18:54 CET

This may be the proverbial dumb question, but is there any reason it absolutely has to be Fox? Universal picked up Serenity and UPN Buffy.

barboo | May 16, 18:59 CET

How come there's no network in the picture? Wouldn't Fox plus Generic!Network share the costs?

Like I said earlier in the thread while it might be easier to put all the blame, for want of a better word, on Fox there are two sides to every negotiation.

greenlady Maybe the S8 comic will do the flipside to TGIQ and instead of the back of Buffy's head dancing we'll get a frame of the back of Spike and Angel's heads fighting those heavies. Not mentioned by name but obvious who they are. They did that in one of the Ats comics with Buffy, showed her from behind and didn't name her.

lynnie | May 16, 19:09 CET

Before I get started, I would just like to acknowledge that what I am about to say will probably go over like a lead balloon. I might have a better time trying to sell "Death to Spock" merchandise at a Trek convention. Still, I honestly think this needs to be said.

Charmuse said:

FOX - The Wolfram & Hart of Whedonverse. I really hate those guys.

Yeah. How evil they were, to produce 12 seasons of Buffy (6 1/2), Angel (5), and Firefly (1/2) put together, plus remain willing to discuss the possibility of future continuations. They must really have had it in for the shows, huh? I fully understand why only a little over a decade of entertainment would earn your wrath.

Seriously, it's this kind of crap that makes us as a group look bad. Through accidents of timing, luck, and talent, plus a lot of hard work from a whole lot of people, our fandom got a lot more than anyone would have thought possible. Did ANYONE think, seriously think (other than Joss), that a show about a skinny white chick fighting the undead would even be able to produce a spinoff, much less go on to become a cultural touchstone?! We could have just as easily only had those first twelve episodes of Buffy, with no Angel and no Firefly. Or, to be more accurate, you would only have had those...because I never discovered Buffy until Season 6, I would have had nothing.

Yeah, okay, Fox treated Firefly shabbily, and they didn't make Serenity. But they also upped their initial order for the show several times when other networks would have just axed it. Sure, they killed Wonderfalls and The Inside, and I blame them for that. But the Wolfram and Hart of the Whedonverse? IT'S BECAUSE OF FOX THAT YOU HAVE A WHEDONVERSE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!

BAFfler | May 16, 19:14 CET

In fairness, there's a lack of distinction here between 20th Century Fox and Fox Broadcasting. I very, very much doubt Fox Broadcasting would be involved in this -- it's possibly Fox Home Video, at a complete (and probably incorrect) guess.

Also, as I've said before the other day here, there's some very smart people at Fox. There's also some not so smart ones. It's how it works.

gossi | May 16, 19:31 CET

BAFfler there's no need to go over the top and be so rude.

Simon | May 16, 19:34 CET

I think the network option and to do it as a T.V. movie was actually the first choice but it didn't work out.That's when Joss went to plan B,a DVD movie.

As far as I know,20th Century Fox owns the Buffyverse so Joss can't just take it to another studio like he did with Serenity.With Serenity,Fox released the film rights and let Joss take them to Universal.I honestly don't think they would do the same for the Buffyverse.It's a bigger asset to them then,in there minds,Firefly was.

Fox could of refused to release the film rights to Firefly.If they had,Serenity would never of been made.

He can't really do any Buffyverse movie without 20th Century Fox's permission.

Buffyfantic | May 16, 20:32 CET

20th Century Fox also had the rights over Firefly, but Universal will have paid to get the rights.

Ultimately, if - say - Paramount wanted to make a DVD feature and put the cash up, it would happen. It's the same as how Fox sold the Buffy TV show to WB, after all the other networks turned it down.

Again -- sob now -- licensing/rights is a money thing. Companies license out properties for huge sums of money.

gossi | May 16, 20:40 CET

20th Century Fox (not to be confused with Fox Broadcasting) owns the production rights - so no other network, studio, etc., can do anything unless they agee to it. The reason Serenity was able to get made is because 20th Century Fox agreed to sell the film rights to Universal. Had they refused, the Browncoats would have been out of luck.

killinj | May 16, 20:42 CET

OMG! Gunn coming back as a vampire would have absolutely been fantastic. He would have finally gotten a decent stroyline for once. Damn you FOX! Damn you straight to HELL!!!

SpikeBad | May 16, 20:42 CET

I think BAFfler is speaking true. I'm grateful for what I have. It's more than enough. And any future incarnations of my favorite shows/characters is bonus.

TheZeppo | May 16, 21:01 CET

I wonder if Gunn's vampification would have finally addressed some of the no doubt latent issues he had with his sister's turning, and his staking her. Besides "First Impressions" and "That Old Gang of Mine," she wasn't even mentioned (okay, I think Skip mentioned her in "Inside Out" as well), even though she's probably one of the critical reasons Gunn eventually chose to become a member of AI instead of stay with his peeps.

Anyway. I have no idea how it would have been pulled off, but I have faith that it would have been many levels of awesome. Curses be unto the WB for the cancellation!

WilliamTheB | May 16, 21:19 CET

I'll be honest, I find this pretty upsetting.

Dolphin Tamer | May 16, 21:56 CET

So is this the official end of the Buffyverse? Kinda whimpery as opposed to bangy. How corporate. And no. I don't like comic books.

Screw TV executives.

smog | May 16, 22:16 CET

Guys, we don't know anything official, other than it hasn't happened, as nobody has opted to make it. Live action things are corporate in nature, which is both a positive and a negative thing.

I don't think it's safe to assume it's the end of the Buffyverse at all. Life is long.

Or something.

gossi | May 16, 22:26 CET

At last! Something to make me glad I didn't go to the convention - cos hearing Amy say that would have ruined my whole weekend.

[ edited by Cider on 2006-05-16 20:35 ]

Cider | May 16, 22:34 CET

Guys...we can all still get involved in the card effort and let them know the desire is alive and kicking. It may not do a damn thing, but you never know. While things don't look good now, maybe another studio or even a network may take notice. Then perhaps FOX will be willing to deal somehow....

kathylovesspike | May 16, 22:54 CET

I feel like I'm standing in that alley,shoulder to shoulder with Spike and Angel and crew,knowing the battle is hopeless,knowing the odds against any kind of victory,and yet,there...to the bitter end...because it is a fight worth fighting.

Oh,yeah...there will be postcards. Just wish I could do more.

Berry | May 16, 23:20 CET

Very sad about the Spike movie. I'll send out postcards because I would really love to see what Joss Whedon and James Marsters could do together one more time. I just hope that if Joss feels it's over for him, he'll let us know.

annieb | May 17, 00:49 CET

Amy hasn't been misquoted, and I guess technically neither has J, but that doesn't really correctly capture his reaction or what he said.

Amy also mentioned this to me and a friend on Friday night (this particular talk was on Sunday) because she was signing some post NFA comics for us and we were talking about Gunn still being alive and she told us those plans, so it's definitely what she said.

The Do That Girl said:

Starfury record the event and may eventually release DVD's.

The talk where Amy said this won't be on there, though, as J (and also Christian) have clauses in their contracts at these events that their talks won't be recorded, as they feel more comfortable saying whatever they like on stage knowing they aren't being recorded. As this was an Amy/J/Vincent talk, it won't make it to the DVD, should Sean do one.

Also, if Joss is sitting somewhere going "Aaaaaamy! Shhh!", Vincent agreed to take the blame for spilling the beans. :D

RachVG | May 17, 12:34 CET

RachVG Yes, I remember now that J's talk wasn't on the EoD tapes, I didn't know about Christian also having a clause for non recording.

The Do That Girl | May 17, 18:02 CET

The way I feel

The King is dead (buffiverse on the tube)

Long live the King (Whedon creativity)

Nancy Boy hair Gel | May 18, 02:02 CET

While I'm looking forward to Joss' future projects, I can't understand the position that we all should move on from wanting any more Buffyverse (Angelverse, Spikeverse, Clemverse, whatever) projects. After the original Star Trek was cancelled in the 1960s and the chances of any return looked beyond grim, did the Trek fans say, "Oh well, Gene Roddenberry has moved on to other projects, so we'll just look forward to Genesis II and Planet Earth, and hey, what about The Questor Tapes? That title sounds exciting, so let's all become fans of that!" No, they continued to fight tooth and nail, and four years later they finally got a Star Trek animated series, then finally got the first Star Trek motion picture a full decade after the original series left the air. Did that make them bad Roddenberry fans? Most of the hardcore fans watched his other works, and many still supported his posthumous series Earth: Final Conflict and Andromeda, based (loosely) on his story ideas. But just as it was possible to be a "good" Rodenberry fan and still clamour for more Star Trek, it's possible to be a "good" Joss fan and still want to see our vamps and demons and slayers again.

And what I think people are forgetting is that it's only been two years this month since the end of Angel. James gave Joss five years, so there's still three years for something to happen. True, James said recently that there's only a year and a half left of the five years, but that's what's known as an exaggeration to make a point that time is fleeting. He hasn't suddenly invented a new kind of mathematics in which 3.5 = 5. It's not over yet.

And as for the "If it hasn't happened yet, it's not going to happen," might I point out that the post-series Alien Nation movies didn't finally become a reality until nearly five years after the series was cancelled with a cliffhanger ending, and they wound up making four more TV-movies in the next three years. And as I said, it was around that amount of time that it took for any post-Star Trek to surface. So two years since Angel with nothing more yet doesn't strike me as meaning that we should just throw up our hands and give up.

deanna b | May 18, 03:47 CET

Well said Deanna!

ramses 2 | May 18, 04:06 CET

The Do That Girl, yup, I remember before the White Room that Sean had said there wouldn't be DVDs because neither J or Christian allow recording and since they were the main guests, it would be pointless. Though he did make a Firefly Talks DVD and combine it with Fusion in the end...

RachVG | May 18, 05:03 CET

May 15 2006