Whedonesque Mobile : Comments on 10214 : Greatest Unrequited Loves.

Can't really comment on the poll, I've never seen most of those shows. Except that it looks like the Buffyverse has two of the top five!!

As for the post, it would be great if you put Willow and Xander on the post (under More). They were rather hard to find on the sight but once I found them I had to vote....

Hero of Canton | April 29, 07:04 CET

Very well, Jerry :) I have to go with Spike and Buffy as my favorite. When he says, "Every night I save you," it just breaks my heart, every time.

KatieB | April 29, 07:05 CET

Hmmmm, Did not Dawson and Joey at certain times BOTH like each other???

I only watched one later season...

I voted on Wills and Xander....

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-29 05:36 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 07:16 CET

Dawson and Joey liked each other so much they could never quite get together (mainly because getting the two leads together is how to get canceled). How Joey never noticed the fact Dawson is the dullest TV character I've ever seen I don't know.

gossi | April 29, 07:22 CET

Amen, gossi.

I had to give it up for Spike/Buffy. Poor, Spike.....I always think of him chain smoking in front of Buffy's house. So sad.

Harmalicious | April 29, 07:29 CET

That is true.Infact The only people I liked were Jen and Jack.

Then, I would saw the don't exactly belong on this list.Unrequited means one person loves and the other never returns it in the SAME way.

What Buffy and Spike shared in season 6 was not love but a need from both to hurt and control the out of control world around them. Spike as demon, might be able to feel love, but to understand it then goes against the unsoulded part. Souled he not only understood love, but what it also meant to love and want to be loved back.

Willow always loved/lusted Xander. He not so much.

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 07:33 CET

I think both Spike/Buffy and Xander/Willow had their moments of requitedness. Spike and Buffy at least had the brief time when he got his soul back, and Xander and Willow I remember hooked up at one point, but then it ended up not happening long term. Which wasn't so heartbreaking considering she decided she was gay and all.

Anyone remember what season Xander/Willow was? It must have just been a few episodes, because I barely remember it.

So, probably neither pair would top my list of quintessential unrequiteds.

Celluloid Novelist | April 29, 08:13 CET

Season three.

But I would never say Xander returned anything to Wills but good old fashion lust. Wills deffinatly felt more.

Buffy and Spike win my vote.

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-29 06:33 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 08:22 CET

I voted Spike and Buffy all the way.

cheryl | April 29, 08:26 CET

I voted for Buffy/Spike even though, in my opinion, the greatest unrequited love in the Buffyverse is Wesley/Fred.

almostbrilliant | April 29, 08:50 CET

Didn't they love each other right before Illyria came to be? Or was that more Wes?

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-29 07:29 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 09:10 CET

Greatest unrequited TV love in a drama? Simon/Kaylee. (BDM doesn't count. It's a TV poll.)

Greatest in a comedy? Jaye/Eric from "Wonderfalls."

And that's all, folks.

BAFfler | April 29, 09:20 CET

Zip-Ity-Do-Da, I believe it was more Wes. When Fred was dying, Wesley said that line about loving her and all she said was "I'm sorry."

almostbrilliant | April 29, 09:37 CET

Zip - yeah, like Xander was lusting after Willow when he sat by her bedside in Becoming, talking about who would he talk to every day? And that he loved her.

Ooooh. How lusty.

He was at his best friend's bedside, talking to her unconscious self about how much he valued her in his life.

Willowy | April 29, 09:52 CET

Yeah, sorry, have to totally agree with Andrea and Brandon in 90210. That was #1 most unrequited love... ever. (besides, of course, Ralph or MILLHOUSE to Lisa in the Simpsons. More Millhouse, still being dissed in online polls.)

For the record, I think that Xander did end up liking Willow, if only for a while. And the same with Buffy to Spike.

And Jaye DID like Eric. As vice versa. Like, throughout the entire show. It was just a matter of holding back, and scaring themselves.

numbereleven | April 29, 09:59 CET

To me, Giles/Jenny feels like the most viciously unrequited story in the Buffyverse. I know they had some time together, but god, that was just vastly more wrenching than Buffy/Spike or Willow/Xander. Although props to almostbrilliant for considering Wesley/Fred.

Scotto | April 29, 10:16 CET

No one's mentioned Xander/Buffy yet. Definitely unrequited, and yet, it set the stage for so much in the later seasons, even as it wasn't really revisited after the S2 opener, IIRC.

jclemens | April 29, 11:12 CET

Giles/Jenny is entirely requited, though.

mjwilson | April 29, 11:54 CET

I saw the scene by the bedside as him talking to his best friend. He was not talking about wanting to be with her all couply, but needing her in his life. There is difference. He loved her with a deep love, but not a romantic love. And I do believe we were talking about them in season 3.

I don't know if Xand ever loved Buffy the person, IMO it was a crush and more about Buffy the hero. I know he loved Buffy the friend deeply.

And what about Wes and Lilah? I think she loved him, but while he cared more then he could named, Fred was always his obsession/love.

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-29 10:07 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 12:05 CET

I don't know if I would consider Wesley/Fred as unrequited since she did return his feelings and they were in a romantic relationship by the end of ,"Smile Time."It started as unrequited but became mutually romantic.

Willow and Xander was definitely unrequited which eventually burned itself out once they got briefly touchy feely in early season 3.

Spike and Buffy I would put as unrequited.Buffy eventually came to care for and love Spike in season 7 but it wasn't the same type of romantic love he had for her.

Xander and Buffy was definitely unrequited.

I think Wes/Lilah was mutual lust.I don't think either loved each other although I do think there was some light caring towards each other.

Buffyfantic | April 29, 15:18 CET

Buffy and Spike seemed pretty requitted to me. I don't know that either of them really "loved" each other. They certainly cared a lot, and lusted like jack rabbits, but actual really real LOVE...

Willow crushed pretty hard on Xander for a while and they eventually made with the lip smacking. Afterwards, both realized it wasn't going to happen and went on with life just fine. I'd call it a draw.

Sorry guys, I had to go Millhouse/Lisa on this one. Poor pathetic Millhouse. He will never know the tender touch of his fair Lisa. Unrequitted all the way.

Love's Bitch | April 29, 15:24 CET

Well,I feel Buffy and Spike was unrequited because the type of love between the two was different.Spike was in love with Buffy.

What changed on Buffy's side was she went from hating him starting in season 5,to physical lust in season 6 and finally to caring about him by season 7.The type of love she developed for him was different from the romantic love he had for her which is why I still see it as unrequited.IMO

Buffyfantic | April 29, 15:47 CET

Wow - Wes and Lilah, that's a good one and I agree she loved him and he cared about her, but could never really love her (he said he could never trust her).

Lindsey and Darla - I guess it is a debate if he really loved her but to me it seemed he did, she definitely only used him.

So much unrequited love in verse :)

Passion | April 29, 15:50 CET

The thing about the relationships in the Buffyverse is that they were controlled by Joss, which automatically meant that they would either be unrequited or, more likely, doomed. No such thing as happy ever after when you have Joss Whedon writing your life, hehe.

I don't think anyone has mentioned Cordy and Doyle yet. That was probably the relationship that really stands out in my mind when discussing this topic.

Kaine | April 29, 16:12 CET

The thing about the relationships in the Buffyverse is that they were controlled by Joss, which automatically meant that they would either be unrequited or, more likely, doomed. No such thing as happy ever after when you have Joss Whedon writing your life, hehe.

Except Willow and Kennedy.lol

Buffyfantic | April 29, 16:36 CET

I don't think Spike's feelings for Buffy were ever requited and judging from his comments he didn't think so either. Poor Spike.

killinj | April 29, 16:36 CET

"Except Willow and Kennedy.lol"

Just give him time. If a future Willow project ever happens, expect relationship disaster, hehe. ;)

Kaine | April 29, 16:56 CET

I don't think anyone has mentioned Cordy and Doyle yet. That was probably the relationship that really stands out in my mind when discussing this topic.

With one of the sadder line-readings in the 'Verse. "I'll guess we'll never know if this is a face you could grow to love."

That's from memory, so it could be off. I miss Glenn terribly.

XanFan32 | April 29, 17:13 CET

The thing about the relationships in the Buffyverse is that they were controlled by Joss, which automatically meant that they would either be unrequited or, more likely, doomed. No such thing as happy ever after when you have Joss Whedon writing your life, hehe.

Except Willow and Kennedy.lol

And Simon and Kaylee.

vampire dan | April 29, 17:24 CET

I'd have to go with either

Lennier and Delenn

or

Marcus and Ivanova

from Babylon 5. I don't see a whole lot of unrequited love in Buffy. Xander vs Buffy perhaps, but that was resolved pretty early on.

Edit: Of course the BIGGEST unrequited love in television is Niles vs Daphne in "Frasier".

[ edited by [wcip]Angel on 2006-04-29 15:41 ]

[wcip]Angel | April 29, 17:40 CET

I seem to remember some Simon & Kaylee requiting in the movie, though...Doesn't that count?
Also, Fred may have returned Wesley's feelings, but she died about three minutes after she realized it...tragic, if not unrequited.

jcs | April 29, 17:42 CET

What is the definition of Unrequited love? Don't you think Willow/Xander had requited love for a short time? (they didn't have sex while they were into each other, probably because Cordy got stabbed with a peice of wood) Then there is the Spuffy, and the "Why does everyone in the house think I'm still in love with Spike", ILYNYDBTFSI, etc. etc. I think whether Buffy/Spike were unrequited or requited is a debate that lives forever, but I voted for them. ;) (Right now, in my mind, I think they are requiting it all over the place)

Cordy/Doyle? I think they were definitely in the process of falling in love.

spikeylover | April 29, 18:00 CET

Cordy got rebarred.

And don't forget Andrew/Warren. For the unrequited thing.

Willowy | April 29, 18:09 CET

What about Harmony and Spike? She loved him til the end and he never loved her.
Faith and Angel. Faith wanted Angel pretty bad but never mangaed to get him.
Wes and Lilah are a good one, although I like to believe they had true feelings for each other. I would have prefered this one to the W/F relationship.
Buffy and Xander are another great example.
Conner and Cordy could be in this poll too or Kate and Angel.
Nina and Angel...the list goes on and on. LOL

cheryl | April 29, 18:19 CET

Doyle and Cordy... how could it slip my mind? Definitely unrequitted. She never even knew he loved her until the very end and never had a chance to requite, if she would have.

Love's Bitch | April 29, 18:30 CET

I'm sorry, but I have something to confess - whenever I think of Connor and Cordy I want to vomit. Which is probably the point of their relationship, also.

My addition: Pacey and Andi Mcphee. Dude. Dude. DUDE. I'm not sure it fits under Unrequited, but I do not care.

gossi | April 29, 18:32 CET

I think by the end of Chosen, Buffy and Spike were in love with each other.

It just made it more tragic and painful that Spike went to get his soul so Buffy would love him and once he got it, he couldn't believe she would ever fall in love with him. But she did. *sniff*

Reddygirl | April 29, 19:05 CET

I agree with you Reddygirl...by the end of Chosen I think they were falling in love with each other, even though I think Buffy started loving Spike long before that. Still...all the past pain, insecurity and guilt on Spike's part once he got his soul back, just wouldn't let him beleive he could be loved by anyone, let alone Buffy.
Sometimes I think that this is the most tragic aspect of Spike. He was a man that lived for love, had so much love to give and yet never seemed to beleive he was worthy of it.

So I wouldn't call them unrequited in the traditional sense, but I voted for them anyway.

I do think unrequited could have applied to Angel and Cordy. I always thought they were so cute together, but tragedy tore them apart too. But they weren't on the list.

Boy...not much happiness for any couple in the Joss Verse is there?

kathylovesspike | April 29, 19:21 CET

I've always thought the more Joss loves a couple, the more pain he causes them. So I figure he must love Buffy and Spike a lot.

Reddygirl | April 29, 19:28 CET

Yeah, I would put Faith and Angel here. But then again did she really want him or just want what was Buffy's?? Hell, maybe even put Buffy/Faith here.

Angel and Cordy,their feelings were always minupulated. Angel was never ever able to say it to Cordy and she always seemed more to be the person that became out of sight out of mind.

Conner/ Cordy? Add me to the nasty ,ick and grossed out pile.

Awww Doyle and Cordy.. I loved them! I still can't watch Hero.

Joss must have loved all the couples alot. B/A, X/A, W/T, W/O, G/J and the list goes on....LOTS of pain!

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 21:11 CET

Maybe I wasn't paying attention in English class that day but wouldn't Spike & Buffy be requited, as they did the dirty in lots of dirty ways.

Ashley | April 29, 21:31 CET

The way I see it, you mention the words greatest and couple in anything, you have to say Spuffy. Marsters and Gellar have chemistry with almost everyone, but together they sizzled like few others.

spikeylover | April 29, 21:40 CET

Spike loved Buffy. A lot. For years.

Buffy got to lust in Season 6 and a sort of respectful caring by the very end of Season 7 when Spike was frying to a crisp. At best.

At worst it might just have been "Damn I am going to miss having someone to unconditionally worship me no matter what I do!"

She still broke his heart with the "Does it have to mean anything?" and the Angel kissing shortly before.

If that isn't unrequited I don't know what is.

Wow, Still bitter after all these years. I guess I had better go read some nice fluffy Spuffy fiction to make myself feel better!

[ edited by Xane on 2006-04-29 19:50 ]

Xane | April 29, 21:48 CET

Unrequited love: Willow had it for Xander and Xander had it for Buffy but in time both of those evolved into the nonromantic deep love of good friends.

Spike's Buffylove is always unrequited - although she shared sex with him I hold with the opinion that had more to do with her emotional problems after coming back to life than love. Remember when she breaks up with him she tells him that she DOESN'T love him, and using him for sex is killing her. After he got his soul back they became genuinely close, but I don't think she ever loved him as he loved her - or as she loved Angel.

Riley and Buffy? After all, he also recognizes that Buffy does not truly love him, certainly not as he loves her. I think it qualifies as unrequited.

But for me the most heartbreaky unrequited love in the Buffyverse is Oz when he comes back to Sunnydale after Willow has connected with Tara. This is not an I-hate-Tara, Willow-should-have-stayed-straight rant. Actually I love the Tara and Willow relationship. It's just that I also love the Oz and Willow relationship, and watching the two of them come apart breaks me up every time.

Oh, and let's not forget Andrew and Spike.

barboo | April 29, 21:55 CET

Many couples on Buffy sizzled.Many couples can also be considered great. It is all up to the individual viewer. I respect that we all see things differently. I know we have all fought this shipper thing many times and another poll will not change any of our views.
My opinion is in no trying to start a shipper war on this board or say my opinion matters more.=)

I always though Buffy cared for Spike very much. We know he loved her. Though, I will admit after all his growth on Angel, I wonder if he would still see her the same way. He had something growing for Fred. And given time he may have grown to have something for Illyria. Though we know she loved Wes, who loved Fred, who loved the idea of being loved.

Buffy also very clearly said she could never love anyone more then she loved Angel. That remained true, even in thier last meeting. They kissed,something she did without hesitation and showed no regret in enjoying and doing. Then she gave hope of maybe.

I think she liked that no matter what Spike never questioned her. At a time when everyone was, that was quite refreshing. But she when she told him, he who has always seen through lies d been the one to see the truth, knew she might love him, yes, but not in the way he wanted, needed or loved her. He told her so and she did not argue. I think deep friendships such as Buffy/Xander, Faith/Angel and Spike/Buffy survive longer then romantic love in this verse.

DB and SMG had chemistry that never stopped. They are your essential supercouple. Infact the the lady who directed EOD's said she had never seen anything like it. They always brought a highed lever of tension and electricity. A reason why after so many years, fans and media still want to see them together, any way they can get it. IMO, the only other person DB had that great of chem with was ED, and in early seasons, CC.

This poll is asking for the best unrequited crush/love. What Buffy and Spike did in 6 was not good for them. He could not understand love. She hated herself. All they shared was darkness. In 7, they grew to respect and have a deep friendship. But that is NOT what this poll is asking. They are asking about crush or love not returned. Depending on the viewer that can be B/s or it can't if you think they loved. But sharing moments does not make requited love.

On shows now, how about Chloe and Clark on SV? Poor thing always watching him chase Lana. It has been so long, but did Beverly Crusher and Picard ever return anything?

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-29 20:24 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 21:59 CET

How Joey never noticed the fact Dawson is the dullest TV character I've ever seen I don't know.

Should I take this personally, since my girlfriend first liked me because I'm exactly like Dawson in real life? Without the long-winded monologues and complete film obsession, of course.

The Dark Shape | April 29, 22:04 CET

Hee!..if you ask Joss, Angel's greatest sizzle was with Spike. (Exotic Mushroom, where are you? Oh, yeah Spangel isn't unrequited love..:P)

I think the fact that Buffy said "I LOVE YOU" at the end of the series was reason to believe it was requited. I mean, you can't definitely say it was UNREQUITED love after that..

I also agree that Chloe/Clark are a good unrequited love. I just don't care for Tom Welling's acting, although she is definitely the one he has the most chemistry with, IMO.

spikeylover | April 29, 22:30 CET

There is no doubt she loved him. But, she did not love him the way he wanted her too or the way he himself loved her. That is why it is unrequited.

Buffy loved alot of people in her life, all in different ways. Xander, Riley, Faith, and Spike all loved her in A WAY she could not return. But she did give each one something very special and unique.

I do believe the Spangle thing was a joke.

No, TW is just nice to look at with his glossy lip and flushed cheeks.=P

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-29 23:58 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 29, 22:43 CET

There is no doubt she loved him. But, she did not love him the way he wanted her too or the way he himself loved her. That is why it is unrequited.

Buffy loved alot of people in her life, all in different ways. Xander, Riley, Faith, and Spike all loved her in A WAY she could not return. But she did give each one something very special and unique.

I agree. For Buffy, as her life became more and more complicated, things began to get in the way. Whether it was her fear of abandonment, suicidal depression, or guilt built on being a good person, these things would always prevent her from falling in the deepest kind of love. The problem really presents itself in Into The Woods and is played out until the cookie dough speech in Chosen.

Cool stuff guys, my thread is alive!

jerryst3161 | April 29, 22:51 CET

Zip a dee doodah said:
"DB and SMG had chemistry that never stopped. They are your essential supercouple...a reason why after so many years, fans and media still want to see them together, any way they can get it"

I beg to differ. I totally accept that SOME may feel that way but for me that Angel/Buffy stuff at the end of Season 7 was the worst part of the whole series. Still leaves a bad taste. I never got the Buffy Angel relationship when it was going on and the whole Angel being the love of her life to me just was evidence of Buffy's emotional retardation. Just my opinion.But of course I think I'm right! ;)

Xane | April 30, 00:56 CET

Wilipedia defines it as....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrequited_love

Unrequited love is love that is not reciprocated, even though reciprocation is desired. This can lead to feelings such as depression, anxiety, and mood swings such as swift changes between depression and euphoria.

Overview
Unrequited love can result in obsessive behavior such as stalking and even transform into hostility toward the object of desire if the love is rejected.These sorts of behavior can lead the afflicted person to be seen as "perverted" or to a lesser extent, simply "creepy". Conversely, unrequited love has also been the inspiration for and topic of many great works of art. Such works have brought hope and inspiration to the lovelorn and romantically-inclined for centuries. Whether a particular case of unrequited love is interpreted by an observer (or by the love's object) as being sweet or creepy is a complex and subjective issue.

Being in unrequited love can be torturous, but it can simultaneously be a source of great joy, sometimes providing the lover a sense of fulfillment for having somebody to love, even though that love is not returned. The lover may feel this satisfaction is "worth" the emotional duress they must suffer. They may prefer to stay in love rather than move on.

Although unrequited love can last a very long time�many years, or even decades�the lover's feelings usually reach a breaking point as they continue to deepen. The love typically ends either when the lover receives reciprocation from the loved, the feelings subside, the lover acknowledges that their feelings will never be returned, or the lover channels their devotion towards another, more reciprocative object.

After he got his soul back they became genuinely close, but I don't think she ever loved him as he loved her - or as she loved Angel.

That's pretty much what I saw and why I think,"Chosen" and the ILY,NYDBTFSI works so well and also why B/S IMO remained unrequited.Buffy wasn't lying with the ILY.It was just a different type of love then Spike had for her,hence the NYDBTFSI.He realized that and accepted it which is the opposite of the end of season 6 where soulless Spike refused to accept it.

Willow/Xander I feel remained unrequited even with the early season 3 thing.That seemed more physical lust on Xander's side and it didn't go much farther then that.Xander also always seemed jealous of Oz early on due to Willow's attention not being fully on him anymore.I think it also burned itself out,the unrequited love,during this period for Willow with her really realizing that she was in love with Oz.

Doyle/Cordy seemed on the verge of requited love when he died.

Willow/Kennedy will probably stay together forever just due to the fact the ship seems so hated.lol

[ edited by Buffyfantic on 2006-04-29 23:40 ]

Buffyfantic | April 30, 01:16 CET

I think the fact that Buffy said "I LOVE YOU" at the end of the series was reason to believe it was requited. I mean, you can't definitely say it was UNREQUITED love after that..

Unless you have the character it's being said to say, "No, you don't..." - as Joss did.

I think that Buffy/Spike fit the definition of unrequited love. But I also think that moment in Chosen was one of real growth for Spike.

And I am one of those that loved everything about the B/A stuff in season 7 - from "I loved him more than I will ever love anything" - to the glowing, basking, kissing hope for the future. That, to me, set up the whole unrequited love for Spike. Did she love him? Yes, but not the romantic love he was seeking and that is the definition of unrequited love. After all, people don't talk about requited or unrequited love that isn't romantic in nature.

Willow/Xander was requited very briefly - a time when they both wanted the same thing from each other. Of course, it didn't work out but the difference there is that they both DID want the same thing. I can't say the same of B/S. They always seemed to want and need different things from each other. Hence Buffy's, "does it have to mean something?" - and Spike's acceptance of that.

I also loved Brandon/Andrea from 90210!Ahh, good times.

[ edited by love4ba on 2006-04-29 23:27 ]

love4ba | April 30, 01:23 CET

Sorry - double post! Grr.

[ edited by love4ba on 2006-04-29 23:24 ]

love4ba | April 30, 01:24 CET

I too loved B/A in season 7. It was very natural and the way Buffy smiled was unlike anything she had done in a long time. I basked.There were alot of other things to dislike in season 7, B/a, B/s were not one of them.

Spike has continued to grow and every season shows a paralle of a season befores mistake, except this time he has grown. He tried to force Buffy to love him and lost her trust. Then when she told him she loved him, he had grown enough to understand it was not the same as how he felt, never would be and was okay. He was able to tell her she didn't, be okay with it himself and let her move on. He was peaceful in his death. No worries.

Buffy is now a dear friend. An ex-lover with whom started him on his journey, but whom he will grow past. Maybe to Illyria.

I see Wills getting tired of Kennedy. She was rebound and fun, but no substance. Same with Robin and Faith. In both someone wanted more then another could or was willing to give, so they settled for what they could get.

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-29 23:57 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 30, 01:45 CET

Yeah, it seemed pretty clear to me that Buffy held Spike in very high regard and, given that the guy was about to give up his 'life' plugging the hellmouth, she tried to give him what she thought he wanted. She didn't actually love him (as he realises and tells her) but she thought enough of him to at least say the words (as he also realises, hence the 'thanks for saying it'). So, in short, definitely unrequited ;).

Maybe Willow and Kennedy wouldn't last but I don't agree about Wood and Faith. I think those two had a lot in common, wanted similar things from the relationship and were both wicked pretty ;-). Wood had already surprised Faith once, I think she'd want to give him the chance to do it again and he'd see her as a chance to connect with someone who needed a connection so much that he would almost certainly come first - there'd be no 'mission' priority issues for Faith.

I'd also agree that Willow/Xander was requited albeit briefly as was Dawson/Joey (though quite why escapes me - surely Pacey's a better bet than the be-foreheaded one

So of the others that i've heard of I reckon it has to be Millhouse/Lisa. Just never gonna happen Mill-man, bad luck mate.

Saje | April 30, 02:26 CET

Wood had mommy and slayer issues. I feel Faith would have conformed to much to be his version of the perfect slayer, his mother. Nor do I think Wood would have been able to handle that the most important man in her life was Angel,a vampire.

I do believe she ended up with Pacey. She made her chioce in the last ep.

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 30, 03:14 CET

I definitely think Buffy was in love with Spike when she told him that and it's why she subconsciously blurted out to Willow in First Date "Does everybody in this house still think I'm in love with Spike?"

The fact Spike couldn't believe it doesn't change Buffy's feelings for him. Her face when she looked at Spike after their hands burst into flames was that of a woman looking at the man she's in love with.

In season 6 Spike told Buffy she loved him and she truthfully said she didn't. In 7 Buffy tells Spike she's in love with him and now, because of his soul, can't accept it.

It's part of a pattern of tragic romance in Jossverse. Angel gets his soul back but Buffy has to kill him. Oz comes back to Willow but she's moved on. Willow and Tara reuinte but Tara is killed. Fred finally returns Wes's feelings just before she dies.

I think the B/A/S situation in Chosen is very much like the W/O/T scenario in New Moon Rising. Willow's love for Tara is new and she's still drawn to Oz. It's the same with Buffy in regards to Angel and Spike. And like Willow, Buffy leaves her old love for her new one.

Reddygirl | April 30, 03:40 CET

That's pretty much what I saw and why I think,"Chosen" and the ILY,NYDBTFSI works so well and also why B/S IMO remained unrequited.Buffy wasn't lying with the ILY.It was just a different type of love then Spike had for her,hence the NYDBTFSI.

I have absolutely no idea what this says! :)

gossi | April 30, 03:48 CET

Actually, the W/O/T comparison is not the same as the B/A thing. Willow tells Oz point blank that she can't be with him because she loves Tara now. There is no kissing, no basking, nothing like that. And Oz never comes back into her life. The same can't be said of Buffy/Angel. They DO kiss, bask and Buffy tells him that she still has hope for them in the future. All while saying she DOESN'T see that future with Spike. Pretty much the opposite of W/O/T.

Buffy blurting out in First Date is more about what Buffy perceives others are thinking - it's what she imagines they must have thought in order to understand that she had sex with Spike. She doesn't believe they would understand that it was never about Spike or feeling for him. That she simply used him in order to feel something.

So yeah, Buffy loved Spike in the end. But she wasn't in love. It's why she doesn't tell him before he's literally about to die. Why she doesn't try to convince him she means it. Why there is no kiss or desperate hug, ala Becoming II. Spike accepted what was and what wasn't and so did Buffy - they both had a true moment of acceptance and growth and it was lovely for what it was. But after Spike hearing Buffy tell him that she believes in him, I can't accept that he just can't believe she's in love. He did see her with Angel after all - all glowing and basking and kissing. He's seen what she looks like when she looks at the man she's in love with and that helps lead him to the 'no, you don't...'

love4ba | April 30, 03:51 CET

Well to each there own. We can go over and over this, but we all will believe what we want.

Buffy did not leave Angel for Spike. And I can't disagree more about the comparisons with W/O/T and B/A/S. Buffy also very clearly told everyone she will NEVER love anyone like she loved Angel. Both lines were said.

Being drawn to someone does not make you jump in their arms, kiss them tell them you want to bask in the moment and then tell them they still think of a future with them sometimes. Buffy never stopped loving Angel. Nor has she moved on, since everytime he comes back she dumps everyone and everything for him. This time she could not deal with him dying again and knew he was the only chioce if she failed to stop the baddies.

Spike could not accept it because he knew it was not the love he wanted it to be. His soul is what let him understand what love meant and let him know she loved him just was not IN love with him. She did not argue(something if you loved someone and this was your last chance to tell them how you feel, you would) or fight and let him die in peace. She also was at peace and smiled at the end.

But like I said we will just go rounds and rounds. Let's simply say we disagree and spare these good people the same fights that have destroyed other boards peace. There are many other relationships in this universe to discuss.=)

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 30, 04:01 CET

OK, Giles/Cheese Man. Requited or un ? ;-)

Saje | April 30, 04:11 CET

The were so in requited! Did you not see the sidelong looks?=P

Same with Lorne and his many martinis!

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 30, 04:15 CET

That's pretty much what I saw and why I think,"Chosen" and the ILY,NYDBTFSI works so well and also why B/S IMO remained unrequited.Buffy wasn't lying with the ILY.It was just a different type of love then Spike had for her,hence the NYDBTFSI.

I have absolutely no idea what this says! :)
gossi | April 30, 01:48 CET

ILY=I Love You

NYDBTFSI=No You Don't But Thanks For Saying It

That's pretty much what I saw and why I think,"Chosen" and the,"I Love You" and "No You Don't But Thanks For Saying It" works so well and also why Buffy/Spike in my opinion remained unrequited.Buffy wasn't lying with the,"I Love You."It was just a different type of love then Spike had for her,hence the,"No You Don't But Thanks For Saying It."

Buffyfantic | April 30, 04:20 CET

Buffy did leave Angel for Spike. In Chosen she makes a choice. She sends Angel on his way and goes off to be with Spike. Buffy could have asked Angel to stick around in Chosen and just sit with her. She could have cuddled with him. And Buffy doesn't kiss Angel goodbye or tell him she loves him. Kissing Angel goodbye would have meant much more than being surprised at seeing an old love and giving him a quick kiss.

Like Willow did for Oz, Buffy still had feelings or her first love. And like Willow tells Oz, Buffy sometimes sees Angel in her life. But, we know Willow's love for Tara grows and any thought of Oz is out of Willow's head by the time Tara dies.

It's the same for Buffy. When she had a choice to make, it was Spike whom she wanted to hold her. Buffy's love for Spike is very new. If Spike hadn't been near death, I doubt she would have told him what was in her heart at that time.

If Buffy had asked Angel to stick around for a bit, if she had kissed him or even hugged him goodbye, if she hadn't gone almost directly to Spike and asked to sleep with him, if Buffy hadn't been so cheerful when she bluntly told Angel "if ever", I might have believed the old feelings between Buffy and Angel were as strong as ever. But, they were just residual emotions left over after a once-deep love was reduced to embers. Still warm, but the fire between them was almost out.

In contrast, the fire between Buffy and Spike was just beginning. It was just another tragic Jossverse moment that the new love Buffy had started to feel for Spike never got the chance to grow even deeper. At least on the show. What happened after Chosen has spawned countless fanfic. I think the very ambiguity of Buffy and Spike is one reason there is so much more B/S fanfic being written than B/A fic.

Reddygirl | April 30, 04:23 CET

Buffy did leave Angel for Spike. In Chosen she makes a choice. She sends Angel on his way and goes off to be with Spike.

Nah. She sends Angel on his way and goes to fight for her, and everybody elses, lives. It's a big difference. If anything, she chose to put Spike is the direct danger, but remove Angel from it. So, arguably, she chose Angel.

gossi | April 30, 04:35 CET

Because she couldn't risk him....again. One of those full circle moments of the Universe. A consistent message from beginning to end, that's what Joss gave us and I love him for it.
*g*

cheryl | April 30, 04:42 CET

Ah, Buffyfanfic, I just had no idea what the acronyms stood for.

gossi | April 30, 04:47 CET

I disagree. Buffy had no idea Spike would die. There was plenty of time for Buffy to ask Angel to stick around and cuddle with her but she didn't. That was something she wanted and needed from Spike.

Reddygirl | April 30, 04:51 CET

I think this is one of those issues where all you have to do is read the signature and you have a petty good idea of what that person said. Not to insult anyone. It's just that by now some issues will never be resolved, since no one is going to change their minds. I think that Buffy loved Spike because I like Buffy much better that way. At the end of Chosen Spike is a hero, but Buffy could be seen as confused and manipulative if she was not telling the truth. I'm not a big Chosen fan. There was so much to say that Joss left a lot about to audience interpretation. That seems like a kind of cop-out to me. I think Joss meant to leave a question about the triangle, because he wanted to resolve it later. I find myself wanting a real resolution though. Angel ended up with no one knowing whether the chracters lived or died. However, I think that emotional issues were resolved in a much more satisfactory way.

cmbackshane | April 30, 04:57 CET

At this point I don't think Joss will ever resolve the triangle. The shipper fandoms are very strong and Joss has to know that's one reason interest remains so high in the show.

On season 5 AtS, the question of whom Buffy loved was again left open. She loved them both, Angel and Spike were on equal terms and one day one of them might end up with Buffy.

I don't expect much more clarification than that.

Reddygirl | April 30, 05:13 CET

Gossi said:

Nah. She sends Angel on his way and goes to fight for her, and everybody elses, lives. It's a big difference. If anything, she chose to put Spike is the direct danger, but remove Angel from it. So, arguably, she chose Angel

I'm not a shipper, but that idea just freaks me out. Our hero would sacrifice Spike to save Angel? Ugggggh, I don't think so, and if she did, she's no hero.

wrikiwood | April 30, 05:20 CET

wrikiwood - I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just suggesting it's another way of looking at it.

The intention of Buffy is to be a hero, an icon character, so that's probably not the meaning of it.

Ultimately, there wasn't much time in Chosen to have love and cuddles. They had a lot of story to go through. I thought the cookie dough thing was spot on, as ultimately -- as a character -- Buffy doesn't _want_ to choose a person. That's the point. She isn't ready.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-04-30 03:25 ]

gossi | April 30, 05:24 CET

Couldnt it just be as simple as she needed a second front and was, again, putting the mission above her heart? You know, like she had all season?

And I totally agree about resolution cmbackshane. In a way, Joss sold out, he chose to appease everyone, and in that sense, the show suffered from lack of resolution. My biggest problem with the last season is that the emotional problems raised in Empty Places, for instance, are glossed over for more attractive story-lines. The story is there, definately, but the execution and lack of resolution hurt in the long run.

jerryst3161 | April 30, 05:27 CET

I agree Buffy wasn't ready to commit to a relationship. And that's why if Spike hadn't been near death I doubt she would have admitted her feelings. But Buffy found plenty of time to cuddle with Spike.

Reddygirl | April 30, 05:31 CET

And Buffy doesn't kiss Angel goodbye or tell him she loves him. Kissing Angel goodbye would have meant much more than being surprised at seeing an old love and giving him a quick kiss.

So how do you explain, if Buffy is in love with Spike, that she doesn't kiss him or hug him as he's about to DIE? As in Angel ala Becoming II? Because, according to you, a kiss goodbye means deep, passionate love but a kiss hello - a long, deep kiss followed by staying in his arms and basking and glowing - is something one does with surprise at seeing an old flame.

Because it wasn't exactly a quick kiss. It was deep and passionate. It wasn't a peck hello. It's just not reasonable to expect that a person kisses someone like that and basks and tells him that she can't risk him (just as she couldn't risk her sister - the other person she offered her life for) if she didn't mean exactly what she said. Buffy glowed for Angel. She told Spike, "Does it have to mean something".

And let's not forget, she can be cheerful telling Angel that she still hopes for someday because she is finally beginning to believe it might happen. But she was very cheerful, smiling and hopeful at the end of Chosen - and Spike was dead. Doesn't make sense if she was IN love with him.

And, as gossi points out, she isn't choosing Angel at THAT MOMENT because she's not ready to do that with anyone. But she might be someday. And she wants that someday to be with Angel.

love4ba | April 30, 05:35 CET

love4ba, I don't think there's much point getting into a Buffy/Angel/Spike debate as everybody has their opinions on what happened :) Ultimately, again, I think the point is that Buffy wouldn't choose either Angel or Spike anyway - because she doesn't want to make the choice at that time in her life.

The Buffy season 8 comics, I believe, will resolve some of it. Possibly. So get your lighters ready, each side of the shippers! ;)

gossi | April 30, 05:44 CET

Existential Moment of the Day:

Can any two people love each other equally?

Love's Bitch | April 30, 05:46 CET

The most unrequited has got to be Larry and Xander surely. *sniff* Poor Larry.

Now not to get into the whole shipping thing which just goes round and round til it makes me queazy, but...

I truly disliked Buffy by the time S7 came around. By the time Chosen came into view I wanted both Angel and Spike to run fast, run far away from the emotionally stunted woman. She was given love by Angel, Spike, Riley and Xander and yet it still wasn't enough.

Personally I think she was as incapable of real love, true deeply felt love, as poor damaged Drusilla was. Seriously, I just wanted to slap her (figuratively speaking) and tell her to get off her cross, build a bridge and get over it. Spank that inner moppet as Cordy would say.

Of course you know I'd say Spike and Angel was unrequited, except there was that one........... ;0)

exoticmushroom | April 30, 05:48 CET

Yeah, I know you're right gossi. It's just so tempting some times. And I'll tell you, I'm very glad that this is the only verse where I feel this passionate about something.

Other shows like Lost or Veronica Mars, I can just enjoy any ship they throw my way for what it is. That's a much more light-hearted kind of fun for me.

love4ba | April 30, 05:48 CET

"Existential Moment of the Day:

Can any two people love each other equally?
keedoh | April 30, 03:46 CET"

Maybe that's only ever possible in a triangle. An equilateral triangle, get it? Oh dear lord I made a Maths joke. That's what you get for watching Proof.

[ edited by exoticmushroom on 2006-04-30 03:52 ]

exoticmushroom | April 30, 05:52 CET

Can any two people love each other equally?

Depends on the people, the situation and the time in their lives.

I don't believe two people can love each other equally forever. A lot happens in life, which tends to drive people apart, or to different places in their lives. That said, I don't think it's impossible to have a healthy relationship in those situations, and things come around as fast as they go around.

gossi | April 30, 05:52 CET

Maybe that's only ever possible in a triangle. An equilateral triangle, get it? Oh dear lord I made a Maths joke. That's what you get for watching Proof.

LOL, yeah thats just an abuse of math. And puns. And comedy really...

I believe love is unquantifiable. To quantify love is to de-value it, and I dont think we ever want to do that.

[ edited by jerryst3161 on 2006-04-30 07:03 ]

jerryst3161 | April 30, 06:00 CET

The Buffy season 8 comics, I believe, will resolve some of it. Possibly. So get your lighters ready, each side of the shippers! ;)
gossi | April 30, 03:44 CET

I'm not sure the shipper issues will really be able to be touched on since the rights to Angel and Spike are at another comc book company.

Buffyfantic | April 30, 06:03 CET

Whose to say you can't love more than once in your life? IMO, Buffy definitely loved Spike. Everything we watched lead up to that. She wanted the fire back, their hands burst into flames, etc. etc.

When Buffy sent Angel away, I didn't think it was because she couldn't bear it if Angel died because she loved him so much.. Frankly, what does that say about her that she went directly to Spike's bed? Even if this is something you want to say about Buffy, there was no need for her to sleep with him (or whatever they did) again.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-04-30 05:14 ]

spikeylover | April 30, 06:31 CET

Well, the idea of the Buffy comics is to relate them directly to the proposed Spike project. Characters can always be licensed.

gossi | April 30, 06:32 CET

"I'm not a big Chosen fan. There was so much to say that Joss left a lot about to audience interpretation. That seems like a kind of cop-out to me."

"And I totally agree about resolution cmbackshane. In a way, Joss sold out, he chose to appease everyone, and in that sense, the show suffered from lack of resolution. "

Hmmmmm, a cop-out and selling out. If that is what Joss is doing, those expressions have a different meaning than I had thought. Now, not resolving issues, that is a phrase that has a much closer relationship to what I normally call what Joss did with all those messy characters and relationships. I call it "art."

I also don't think those questions will ever be resolved by Joss, because they were never meant to be from the very beginning.

As far as the requited/un question when it comes to Spike and Buffy, I say "un" simply because even if she was in love with him in the end, the fact that he did not believe it makes it unrequited from Spike's point of view.

newcj | April 30, 07:46 CET

She went and asked him to hold her, not go to his bed. Big difference. Nor, did she stay ther of find comfort as shown by her and the First's convo.

Buffy told him, he denied it and that is were it is left.

As for the comics, I think Joss wanted it to go into all the dvds. But that does not mean it will happen. IDW has already said that DH can not use Angel or Spike. And DH will not allow IDW to use any Buffy characters.

Buffy actually says becasue she could not bare for him to die again. She very clearly sends him away and tells him she needs him to make another front. Then as he is walking away, SHE calls him back and tells him of thinking about the future and maybe one day. IMO, that says Buffy still loved, desired and wanted Angel. She was still just not ready. No reason for her to do that. She was being honest and strait forward.Angel did not force her to jump in his arms and kiss her or say she was basking. She did that by herself.

She did not force Spike to deny her ILY. She did however,never corrected him. There was no reason too.

You can love more then one person at any given time in your life. Just never be IN love with two people at the same time. She got her fire back in the end of season 6, by herself. She made the choice to stop a distructive affair and to embrace her family. She stepped out into the sunlight with her sister and family.

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-30 06:31 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 30, 08:27 CET

You can be in love with two different people at the same time. I think Buffy was throwing Angel a bone, being kind to him when she said maybe someday...if ever...

We see Buffy and Spike in bed together She makes it plain, by saying Faith has taken over her room, that she wants to spent the night with Spike on his cot.

I think Buffy was happy to see Angel, her first love, in Chosen. But I also think she was a bit pissed off at him and that's why there is no romantic, angsty goodbye. She has to be remembering this is the same guy who walked out on her in Grad Day for her own good. And now he's coming back asking her to make some kind of promise? What's changed between the two of them? Nothing. Angel still can't be with her in the sunlight, he still can't even be happy just holding her hand and basking in her love because he might lose her soul. I think Buffy realized all of this and that Angel is just being petty and jealous. She knows that the moment between her and Angel is more about Angel's jealousy over Spike than his feelings for Buffy. That's why she gives him the brushoff.

In Chosen the scales really fell from Buffy's eyes regarding Angel. He would always be her first love, she still had residual feelings for him the way Willow did for Oz, but she no longer saw Angel in a schoolgirlish heroic light.

And that's why the scene between Buffy and Angel started with a kiss and ended with an "if ever" and why Buffy did not look at all sad at the prospect of never seeing Angel again.

Reddygirl | April 30, 10:16 CET

love4ba asks:

"So how do you explain, if Buffy is in love with Spike, that she doesn't kiss him or hug him as he's about to DIE? As in Angel ala Becoming II?"

This question struck me as really funny. Did you see their hands catch fire? Would you want that to happen to your lips?

Bottom line is Buffy was emotionally screwed up. She loved Angel in that teenaged "no one has ever loved anyone as much as we love each other" way that we all do with our first love.

Then because he went all Angelus on her and she had to send him to hell I think she was never able to trust anyone ever again to truly let herself love them romantically whether it be Riley, Spike or the Immortal.

Angel on the other hand didn't fall for her in the same first love way and was able to move on. Darla, Cordy and possibly Nina although we don't know yet. Joss drew a realistic view of an emotionally stunted, damaged young woman. And also created another reason for Angel to feel guilty because he was responsible.

I think Spike was extremely important to Buffy, she certainly wanted him physically but it was her early experience that made her incapable of a truly loving relationship. She may never be. That is the Buffy that I see Joss creating.

Xane | April 30, 10:32 CET

Buffy didn't know that their hands would catch fire - how would she know it might happen if she kissed him goodbye? And I am merely going by what Reddygirl said - that Buffy not kissing Angel goodbye is/was proof of Buffy not loving Angel. I don't see that as proof of anything. To me the proof came from the "I loved him more than I will EVER love anything in this life." - It came from her telling him before he leaves that she still has hope for a future - with him - while she doesn't see a future with Spike. It came from a deep, passionate kiss, glowing, basking.

And I've never denied that Spike was important to Buffy. Or even that she loved him. I just don't see it as "in" love.

Spike was the bad boy stage in Buffy's life. But she got past it once her suicidal depression ended and was able to care for Spike as a friend and compatriot.

And Buffy didn't look sad at the prospect of Angel leaving because she is hopeful that she WILL see him again. Why else even talk about the future? But the same can't be said at the end - when she smiled with hope and happiness - even though Spike had died moments earlier. Does the fact that she smiled like that mean she didn't care for Spike? Of course not. But they both accepted what was - and what wasn't.

So while you saw her throwing Angel a bone, I saw her telling him what has always been true for her - that she wants her future to be with him. The person getting the "bone" if you want (although I consider it more a gift) is Spike. She gives him the words he's hoped to hear since season 5 because he is about to die. But he recognizes it for what it is and tells her that he's grateful but knows it's not true. Not the way he wants it to be.

Did Buffy get upset over Angel being petty and jealous? Sure, just like she did with Spike being petty and jealous. Not sure what the point there is though...

And Xane we will never agree on the way Joss intended Buffy to be portrayed. I don't think Buffy is emotionally screwed up just because she doesn't fall in love with Riley or Spike. You can't help who you love. As Tara said in season 6 - it's okay if you love him. And it's okay if you don't.

Buffy and Angel stopped being merely a first love in season 2 when she had to kill him. It was certainly no longer just a teenaged love by the time she was an adult - and still wanting him to stay "forever".

love4ba | April 30, 11:48 CET

Sorry, but to say Buffy was throwing him a bone and was going to be glad to never see him again was totally twisting the facts as they are shown. We know the must have talked again between Sunnydale's destruction and Rome from the first ep in season 5. You make Buffy sound like a very cold hearted and minuplative person, not caring what she says to people or caring how she effects them. She is not that. Was not that there. There was no brushoff. Calling Angel petty is insulting as Spike drew a a rude picture and was sulking over his jealousy. Something she also comments on with her hot oil comment. She layed in his arms, nothing more. And to me, no different then her doing it with Xander or Willow.

Angel has always been shown to be more the Buffy's first love. And the kiss was more then residual feelings.Nor was her basking comment. Something she said, he did not lead her on or instigate the kiss. To say Buffy and Angel were only a school girl crush is to ignore every other ep in the run of both shows. They were not shown to be schoolgirl in season 3, in Forever, when they meet secretly ,IWRY or in Chosen.

He did not ask her to make anything. SHE made it. Her choice. Spike can't be in the light either. Or give her the noraml life she seems to want.I do believe Angel could hold her, love and be happy with her now, because he will never achive that perfect happiness again. The pain it casued the first time will always be there in the back of his mind. If he did not turn into Angelus at the birth of his ONLY son, nothing but magic will do it again.

Not to mention Joss , himself says he purposely left them open for the fans who love them.

As for Angel moving on,Darla was obsession. Cordy was minuplation and something he himself never expressed and was ended before it ever began. Nina rebound. All of them were in Buffy's shadow and forgotten when she needed him or he wanted her.

I think the ccokie dough speech very clearly tells you Buffy is aware tht she was closed off, but that one day she will be able to be the the person that she wants to be. At that time she KNOWS she will be able to be in a loving relationship with the man or woman of her heart. Angel was not responsible. Angelus was. If Buffy could forgive Spike for the near rape, she would have and have forgiven Angel for Angelus. Angel is not responsible for the decisions Buffy makes that are good or bad in her love life. Buffy was able to be in Angel's arms and kiss him many times since Angelus. That does not say emotionaly stunted and afraid to trust. She also was able to trust Spike after his horrible crime against her. And forgive Faith, who also in essence raped her. Buffy trust alot more then given credit for. And her problem was never loving too little but loving too much and seeing the good in too many people and things.

Seriously lets just agree to disagree. Fact is we have our own opinion and the only person who can say for sure is not any of us. We can go back and forth in this nasty fight and give our reasons and facts. Everyone has heard it many times. They don't change. But in the end, unless Joss writes something new and the actors breath new life into this story, it is just our overzealous opinions.=)

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-04-30 10:18 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 30, 12:05 CET

I think it was Buffy who got the bone. Snicker. Now I am Beavis.

And yes Buffy did say she would love Angel more than yada yada yada precisely because she is emotionally retarded. And I am using the word retarded in the sense that she was stopped from growing at a certain point. As well as damaged, broken, screwed up, crippled, stuck in the past, wounded, and stunted. Wouldn't you be after the experiences of Season 2?

And to the board, sorry for posting so much on this, I was feeling kind of irritated and was venting but suddenly it is striking me as funny. Must be because of the bone thought. So I think I am done now.

Xane | April 30, 12:20 CET

This fight is always funny. But in the kind of way that is not.

Faith said it best one time: You know what the definition of insanity is, baby?
Performing the same task over and over and expecting
different results.

That is us shippers. And in the end we do more harm to the fandom we say we love then help. Everyone just wants us to shut up and go away. People walk away because of the insanity and endless fights that come from just the mention a couple in any good terms.

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | April 30, 12:32 CET

Do bear in mind that I have no intention of letting Whedonesque go back to the end days of the Buffy fandom which was crippled by endless shipper debates and wars and which caused many fans to leave.

So no more shipping talk for a while. If you want to discuss this with me, feel free to email me. Don't discuss it on site.

Simon | April 30, 15:13 CET

Tim Minear: "Factions in fandom are worse than factions in Iraq".

He was joking. I think.

gossi | April 30, 17:06 CET

Simon, on behalf of all of us who never really got into the whole shipping fandom thing, thank you very much.

I've actually read through this entire thread just to see where it would end up going and the answer is exactly where I suspected. Nowhere.

The truth is that 99% of those that back one relationship over the other are not choosing who Buffy really wanted at all. They are choosing the guy that they prefer and assuming that Buffy would want the same thing. They find umpteen reasons to back up why they are right and justify their position but the truth is that the real reasons for their choice of Buffy's perfect boyfriend is that they prefer either Spike or Angel themselves and so naturally are going to want their favourite to end up with the girl. It has absolutely nothing to do with what is best for Buffy.

The truth is that neither Angel, Spike, Riley or anyone else was ideal for her. Each had positives and negatives but none were perfect, which is usually the case in life. What really mattered is that each relationship was right for the time in her life, which in turn made it right for the show and provided us with an excellent seven seasons of television. Debating anything beyond that is a waste of your time as a fan, in my opinion, because nobody is wrong to believe what they believe and you will never change the opinion of anyone else.

My advice to all the shippers out there (and this relates to shippers of any television show fandom actually). Who made the best boyfriend for Buffy really doesn't matter. Let it go. Enjoy the show.

Kaine | April 30, 17:31 CET

Dude, we all know I made the best boyfriend are Buffy anyway! She wants me. Oh yes.

gossi | April 30, 17:44 CET

I go to Kryptonsite/TWOP because of Brainiac spoilers, and it's the endless Lana/Clark, Chloe/Clark thing. (Nobody seems to care about Lois). Like it or not, I have found that whether it's Potter, Buffy or some cartoon, the hot buttons are always the ships. From my SMALLVILLE experience, I can see if you don't ship on a show, than it can be rather overwhelming.

Glad to see the Buffyverse still does so well in polls, years after cancellation.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-04-30 16:03 ]

spikeylover | April 30, 17:57 CET

Love it or hate it shipping is the most passionate zone of every fandom. Joss gave us great legacy. I think the ending was perfect. It made shippers crave for more.

Moscow Watcher | April 30, 18:30 CET

Hey gossi, get in line, fella. Clearly i'm best for her. Just look at your 'ship name. Guffy or maybe Bossi. Madness. Whereas Saffy has a melifluous, soothing quality and Baje sounds almost edible. You can't argue with that kind of logic (in fact, it's usually best just to back away in an unhurried yet timely manner ;-).

Not really into the whole shipping thing though I have no problems with the passion of those that are. I guess when it gets to the stage of repeating the same or similar arguments over and over it's probably time to call it a day though since not only are you not going to change anyone's mind but the discussion itself becomes slightly pointless (and a good discussion is the only reason I can see for even bringing it up in the first place).

[ edited by Saje on 2006-04-30 18:18 ]

Saje | April 30, 18:56 CET

I'm all about what's best for Buffy too. It's actually my only concern when all is said and done.

cheryl | April 30, 19:39 CET

Problem's that what's best for Buffy is not what's best for storytelling.

Moscow Watcher | April 30, 22:46 CET

I'll let Joss be the judge of that Moscow Watcher. *wink*
Seriously Buffy at her best...
"No friends, no weapons, no hope, what's left?"
"ME!"

"I'm Buffy the vampire slayer and you are???"

"I want you to get out of my face!"

That has always been storytelling at its best.

cheryl | May 01, 00:00 CET

Edit: I misunderstood the poll.
So I voted for Joey and Dawson.

For me, Spike and Buffy don't match in that list of unrequired loves. And Willow moved forward, so...

[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2006-04-30 23:08 ]

Angel TheVampire | May 01, 01:04 CET

I loved that line. All of them, actually.

I think the bad thing that many shows get into is that the lead character HAS to be paired off. I like Buffy single. Season 5 was so great because she was single and had what was most important to her around her, her family.

She does not need a man to make her feel better, make her love life or make her a better person. She is whole alone.

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | May 01, 01:52 CET

I'm all about what's best for Buffy too. It's actually my only concern when all is said and done.

Me too, me too! And I think that what's best for Buffy is often what's best for storytelling too. With the possible exception of the Angelus arc which was just brilliant storytelling but so heartbreaking for Buffy. And yes, nobody does that better than Joss - on all counts.

love4ba | May 01, 01:52 CET

cheryl, you're right. That was damn good storytelling.

Harmalicious | May 01, 06:06 CET

I think the best man for Buffy is the Pilsbury Dough Boy. After all, who knows better how to handle cookie dough?

Love's Bitch | May 01, 08:28 CET

I've always thought that Spike's love for Buffy was unrequited. And sex doesn't count (except for Spangel);) Xander and Willow's romantic relationship didn't seem to make enough of an impression on me to consider it love, requited or not.

Zip-Ity-Do-Da said

I do believe the Spangle thing was a joke.

Where's a good Joss slap-down when you need it? *grin*

anindoorkitty | May 01, 09:16 CET

"Mmmm... cookie dough."

D'oh, wrong show!

greenhair00 | May 01, 09:17 CET

Spike and Buffy absolutely don't make the unrequited love list. He loved Buffy and by series end we find she loves him. Because the relationship was used to explore Buffy's struggle to adulthood and self acceptance, the epiphany that she loved him had to be wrapped up in her discovery that she was worth loving. Cheryl's right in the "get out of my face" was a truly great BTVS moment. Our slayer was putting her past in the past and moving toward the light. I think it's extremely important that she says 'get out of my face' right before she runs to Spike and tells him she loves him. It was just a reiteration of what she had told Angel earlier, the past was there but she was looking forword. I disagree that the Immortal was her new love, Andrew says that it's not a forever thing....he then tells both vampires that she loved them, and that they had to move forward with their unlife in order to have a chance with her...we actually see both of them do this in the following episodes.ME I think was making a point here, a point people of all stripes want to overlook......Buffy wasn't being written as OOC, the vamps were being written as moving towards being true potential partners for her. Angel moved towards the mythic and Spike moved towards the human......it was up to us to decide whom Buffy would chose.

ramses 2 | May 01, 09:25 CET

Did not Joss himself say it was a joke???

I think Buffy's journey to adulthood happened the moment she lost her mother. It had nothing to do with any man in her life. She was able to love her family, her friends and those most important to her with the passion of a woman. Self acceptance has nothing to do with who you love but how you see yourself. Buffy saw herself as the capable leader she was because of her own chooses and the love and support from ALL around her.

Buffy was looking for the future and the way you do that is by remembering the past. Buffy's looking to the future and her hope of future events was a great moment, because she made it without feeling any guilt or need but to say what was on her mind. That is why her smile at the end is so perfect.

I have to saw, I wonder how Andrew would know that it was not a forever thing and that Buffy might come back to either of them. Unless the thing with the Immortal is not all it seems. Making anything Andrew also says very suspicious. Once again it is just not a conversation Bufy would have, nor anyone would have about someone they are involved with. I guess we will see in the new comics.

I also did not see anything in the final eps saying anything about moving on romantically. Those eps just were not about that. They were about Angel and the Fang Gang being the heroes they have always been. Romance is fine and dandy, but to zero every decision a character makes down to that really limits their growth and story. Thankfully, Angel was never about romance. I never saw angel as mythic, just a hero doing what heroes do. Nor since Spike is vampire, did I see him going towards humainty. He already had that. The judge said that years ago.IMO.

I hope Buffy chooses to be single, happy and continue to be a slayer for along time to come. Every woman needs time to break free and spend time alone or with the girls. Buffy is no different. To much about who she chooses and not enough about discovering what and who she wants be in her life. I suspect her cookies will be baking for a while yet. Good for her!=)

[ edited by Zip-Ity-Do-Da on 2006-05-01 09:39 ]

Zip-Ity-Do-Da | May 01, 11:18 CET

I think all seven seasons was about Buffy's struggle towards adulthood and self-acceptance. But then again, I don't think she needed any guy in order to feel worthy of love. That doesn't seem like a Jossian thing to do with his girl power theme. I do think that Spike's story was about becoming worthy of self-love and Buffy's love though.

I still don't believe we are meant to take anything Andrew says as gospel truth - he has never been shown to be capable of truth. He is still telling a story - one I find difficult to believe because Buffy would be unlikely to share any of her deepest emotions with him.

And I believe that it was Angel who was moving towards being human. Spike enjoyed being a vamp too much.

[ edited by love4ba on 2006-05-01 09:58 ]

love4ba | May 01, 11:58 CET

I voted Willow/Xander. I did believe that Buffy was in love with Spike in the end.

sethsky | May 01, 14:10 CET

Harmilicious....Thanks. Joss always wrote Buffy at her best. *g*

Shipper views aside. Buffy rocks, the fact that the media is still discussing it, makes me proud to be a fan.

cheryl | May 02, 06:55 CET

Just to touch on the original post and bypass all the buffy shipper conversations, Brian and Angela from my so called life was what I had to vote for. Infact I'm surprised there has been no mention of that series in the thread given just how real the characters seemed to me, and that is one of the main draws of Joss's shows, the situations may be fantastical, but the characters are very real.

My feelings towards that are somewhat biased mind, due to the fact that I found Claire Danes to be the epitome of female perfection back then (to quote Red Dwarf - when she smiled her face lit up like a pinball machine when you win a bonus game) and being shy and geeky I could empathise very strongly :)

eviltobz | May 02, 15:23 CET

The fact that it's debatable means Spike/Buffy shouldn't even be on the freaking list. She admits that she's attracted to him, think he's hot, admits she has feelings for him, says she loves him. Where is this unrequited, she loved him like a friend, nonsense coming from? Dude, I don't know about anyone else, but I never sucked the cock of someone I only think of as a platonic buddy of mine. Geeze. LOL.

Suspiria | May 08, 00:18 CET

And for those of you who keep fanwanking that Angel's still Buffy's twu wuv based on a tongueless kiss and cookie dough, if S/B shippers want to interpret a couple of cuddles and an "I love You" as romantic, ya'll need to shaddup and mind yo' bidness. :P

Suspiria | May 08, 00:58 CET

April 29 2006